Moderator: Community Manager
[Post Reply] [*]  Page 2 of 7  [ 68 posts ]  Go to page « 1 2 3 4 57 »
Author Message
klagldsf
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 1:56 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2765
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 4:14 pm
Were these ships in fact launched with their aft casemates already plated over?


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 2:04 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3406
Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:20 pm
No, Queen Elizabeth carried her aft 6" guns thru her Dardanelles campaign, and had them subsequentlyremoved and the casements plated in early 1916. Barham and Warspite had theirs plated over shortly after launching and Valiant and Malaya were both launched with plated-in aft embrasures.

_________________
My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Raxar
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 3:03 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 1407
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 4:49 pm
Location: Michigan
Ah, the QE class, one of the most beautiful ships ever launcehd. Well done mate!

_________________
Worklist

"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." ~Ludwig Wittgenstein


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
KimWerner
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 4:23 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2195
Joined: December 22nd, 2010, 12:13 pm
Location: Denmark
What can I say? Just beautiful! My compliments to both of you gentlemen :D

_________________
Work in progress:
DD County Class PNS Babur (1982)(PAK)
FF Type 21 Class D182 PNS Babur (2000)(PAK)
All relevant Coat of Arms


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
eswube
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 8:57 am
Offline
Posts: 9704
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 8:31 am
Awesome!


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Portsmouth Bill
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 3:55 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3220
Joined: August 16th, 2010, 7:45 am
Location: Cambridge United Kingdom
Mightily impressive Bezo, you've acheived the seemingly impossible - improved an already superlative drawing. I cannot comment further on the drawings - they speak for themselves; and you're 'background' is a further stimulant to appreciate these fine ships. I have commented recently about Jutland, and in particular the excellent book 'The Rules of The Game' by Andrew Gordon. I would urge anyone who wants to gain a deeper insight into this battle to read this book (beg, borrow, or steal). What emerges is that Jutland could and should have been decisively won by the RN, if the proper application of Nelsons approach to battle had been followed, but years of peace had created a mindset that put caution first. That said, the end result was that the High Seas Fleet never again risked conflict, being bottled up in harbour, where mutiny in 1918 contributed to the collapse of the German war effort.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Bombhead
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 4:51 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2299
Joined: July 27th, 2010, 7:41 pm
Castles of Steel by Robert K Massie is another fine book highly recommended. :geek:


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
signal
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 6:50 pm
Offline
Posts: 283
Joined: August 6th, 2010, 5:44 pm
I have read that Jellicoe's famous (or infamous) turn away
from the German torpedo attack was included in a letter of
intentions he sent to the Admiralty in 1915. His cautious
nature was known in the highest circles of the British govern-
ment.
Admiral Beatty was given the lion's share of the fame for
this battle, but as the commander of the scouting force, and
the senior officer in contact with the German fleet for the
first several hours of the battle, his responsibility was more
than making contact and fighting. His failure to send timely
messages as to the German's speed and course left Jellicoe
in the blind. Even after Jellicoe sent requests for information,
the answers he received were late and came from the Battle-
ship Division of Queen Elizabeths accompanying the Battle-
cruiser force. Although the British should have won at Jutland,
it is hard to see how it could have happened with these two
men in the senior command positions.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-Class Posted: December 29th, 2011, 10:34 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3406
Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:20 pm
Well, PB, I do understand your mindset, but, what that assumption is clearly ignoring is the quality of the German High Seas Fleet itself; its excellent gunnery record, the fact that German officers did undergo a far more thorough training and intellectual education than their British counterparts. Beatty, for instance, rushed through the ranks, after becoming something of a darling to the British public, after Omdurman. He never acquired any specific proficiency in any of the specialities of his service, and this did show, both at Doggerbank and Jutland. Jellicoe, on the other hand was highly competent, perhaps the most competent admiral on either side, but here the shabby staff work and lack of communication between him and Admiralty influenced his actions very negatively - and just to clarify: I meant the Admiralty staff; not Jellicoes!

So, in other words, there should have had to be so many "should have beens" before the Great War, as to make a clear-cut British victory in a naval engagement virtually impossible. The Admiralty was submerged in a dazed attitude towards many aspects of the vital needs for the Senior Service. Both McKenna and Churchill were responsible for that. There was the intermittent war of words between Jacky Fisher and Lord Charles Beresford, between 1906-10 (when both men were forced out of the service!) and the subsequent siding either as a 'Fisherite' or 'Beresfordian', which did much to damage the cohesion within the navy, and which was refelected upon several actions during the war.

as for Nelson's dictum, I don't agree it would've been a good idea; just look at these four examples and how it went down: First: Cradock vs Spee. The former had his squadron destroyed under him and Cradock lost his life, while charging headlong against the overwhelming superiority of Count von Spee's crack armored cruisers at Coronel, Nov. 1, 1914. Second: Jutland, The Run to the North; Beatty vs Hipper. Here, in this running battle, Beatty lost two battle cruisers, Hipper none, and availed himself very little of the tremenduous firepower of Evan-Thomas' 5th BS, due to failure to concentrate his forces. Third: The gallant and, as it proved very fortitudinous arrival from the North of Horace Hood's Third BCS, at about 1817. Here, initially the surprise effect of Hood's sudden appearance told in a surprisingly accurate British gunfire, and a confused German one, but, as soon as Hipper's battlecruisers had recovered from the shock they replied in kind, sending Hood's flagship, Invincible to the bottom. Fourth: Sir Robert Arbuthnot's Death ride against the German battle line, at about 1830 same battle, same day. Here, the sheer stupenduous bravery did not work to save the doomed 1st CS from complete annihilation.
In other words, Nelson's offensive dictum was simply not suitable for the kind of fast maneuvering and long-range gunnery that prevailed during WW1. Instead Jellicoe's cautious and deliberate approach to battle was the correct one.
Also, bear in mind, Nelson, except at Copenhagen, most usually fought an enemy vastly inferior to him and his men in training and experience. Certainly some French flagofficers did rise to the occassion and proved themselves capable, such as La Touche-Treville, Ganteaume or Villeneuve himself (who actually quite accurately understood Nelson's psyche, and was trying to conceive a workable battle plan for the Combined Fleet to meet Nelson on equal terms!). - During WW1, the principla opponent of the RN, was an equally, if not better trained navy, which, albeit lacking in traditions and historical experience, nevertheless was eager to come to grips with their erstwhile friends and allies in the RN- though on a chivalrous mode!
But, basically, what is wrong in an assumption, in my view, about a propitiate British naval victory is the presupposition, too, that the enemy would be obligingly waiting for the Brits to bear down and put their vessel along that of the enemy. The Germans, unfortunately for the RN, simply refused to play along!

_________________
My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Bombhead
Post subject: Re: The "Best 15" guns Ever Made" The Queen Elizabeth-ClassPosted: December 30th, 2011, 5:49 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2299
Joined: July 27th, 2010, 7:41 pm
That about sums it up Bezo,plus of course the fact that German battle cruisers were more battle worthy than their British counterparts,due to better internal sub division.Derfflinger and Lutzov were arsehole lucky to have escaped and had they been built to British standards would have sunk.This fact was actually recognised by Jellicoe long before the war.Jellicoe has been criticsed from turning away from the supposed torpedo attack but no-one ever stops to ask the probable consequences of turning into it.Jellicoe informed the Admiralty of intensions to do this on taking over as CinC.Neither Churchill,Fisher or Battenberg disagreed with him.The standard operating proceedure practiced by all navies at the time was to turn away. :geek: On a different tack Hood and Bezobrazov are we to see more of these gems.............Go on you know you want to.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 2 of 7  [ 68 posts ]  Return to “Real Designs” | Go to page « 1 2 3 4 57 »

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]