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bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 10:07 am
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That's a damn elegant bucket!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen


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ALVAMA
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 10:08 am
what can I say :P


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Hood
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 12:47 pm
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The Fleet Air Arm and Fleet Carriers 1945-70

To set the scene here are the AU aircraft;
[ img ]

Day Fighters and Interceptors
Hawker P.1052 Sea Fury F Mk.1
In 1945 the Fleet Air Arm was equipped with a mix of Supermarine Seafire and Hawker Sea Fury piston-engined fighters with smaller numbers of de Havilland Sea Hornet twin-engined long-range fighters. In 1944 both Supermarine and Hawker began studying jet-powered fighters for the Navy. Specification N.7/46 was written for a straight-wing Hawker design, the P.1040 while Supermarine’s efforts were abandoned. However talks on a swept-wing fighter began and with the support with the RAE and Rear Admiral Slattery, the Chief of Naval Air Equipment, Specification E.38/46 was issued to fit a 35 degree swept wing to the P.1040 thus forming the P.1052. The P.1040 first flew on 1 September 1947 and the P.1052 first flew on 19 December 1948 and soon proved far superior and was officially ordered by the Navy during 1950 as the Sea Hawk. Carrier-trials during 1951 proved successful and during October 1952 the first of 95 F Mk.1s entered service. These were followed by 116 FB Mk.2 fighter-bombers with two 500lb hardpoints and 97 FGA Mk.3 with four 500lb bombs and 16x 3in rockets. The last was retired in 1960. Exports were made to Germany in 1956 for 86 Sea Hawks along with 22 for the Dutch Navy.
Crew 1; armament 4x 20mm Hispano; engine 1x 5,000lb RR Nene 101; 670mph; combat radius with two drop tanks 300 miles.

Hawker P.1085 Sea Hunter F Mk.7
Developed from the supersonic ‘thin-wing’ F Mk.6 Hunter which had RAF service in July 1955 to replace the Sea Hawk. The P.1085 was very similar to the P.1083 but folding wings and an arrestor hook were added, the armament was unchanged but an ECKO AI.20 Green Willow X-Band radar was fitted to enable limited all-weather operations. The Sea Hunter entered service in July 1957 and 126 were built. The last were retired in 1965. 24 were sold to India and operated aboard the Vikrant from 1960.
Crew 1; armament 4x 30mm ADEN and two 500lb bombs (plus from 1960 2x Firestreak AAMs); engine 1x 12,500-17,750lb RR Avon RA.19R, Mach 1.08 at sea level, M 1.2 at 36,000 feet; combat radius with two drop tanks 360 miles.

Vickers-Supermarine Type 576 Scimitar FB Mk.3
In December 1958 the Navy asked for a Sea Hunter replacement and Vickers-Supermarine offered the supersonic Type 576 heavily based on the Scimitar for both interception and strike duties. Two Series 300 Avon engines were fitted along with two de Havilland Spectre rockets in the fuselage just beneath the jet pipes. Extended wingtips were fitted as were an extra 450 gallons of fuel in a humped dorsal spine and wing blowing was extended outboard. AI.23 Airpass I radar was fitted to give a 60nm surface search and air-to-air capability. All of these improvements were designed for retrofit into the current Scimitar F Mk.1 and the first prototype flew in July 1961 and the type entered service in November 1962. Production amounted to 40 new-build aircraft and 60 conversions of Mark 1 Scimitars. The last retired in 1973.
Crew 1; armament (fighter) 24x 3in rockets and four Firestreak/ Red Top AAMs (bomber) 24x 3in rockets and six 1,000lbs (or 4x 1,000lb and two drop tanks) or one TMB; engine 2x 13,220lb RR RB.146 and 2x 8,000lb de Havilland Spectre D.Spe.5A HTP rockets; Mach 1.4 at 55,000 feet, Mach 1.8 at 65,000 feet; 665nm strike radius with one TMB.

Saro P.177N Sea Arrow F Mk.2
Ordered in 1957 to OR.1126 and NR/A.47 for the RAF and Navy, the Saro P.177 first flew on 3 September 1960 and entered RAF service in April 1964 with the first production naval P.177N entering service as the Sea Arrow F Mk.2 in August 1964. 150 were built as fleet interceptors and they soon relegated the supersonic Scimitar Mark 3 to the bombing role. AI.23 Airpass I radars were fitted and they also completed with the automatic interception system initially developed for the Lightning. After a series of incidents the Spectre rockets were removed from 1971 and replaced with extra fuel tankage as the F Mk.4. The last were retired in July 1980. Exports were made to Germany (700 aircraft), Netherlands (70 aircraft) and Japan (177 aircraft).
Crew 1; armament 2x Red Top AAMs; engine 1x 10,000-14,000lb DGJ.10R Gyron Junior and 1x 8,000lb D.Spe.5A Spectre HTP rocket; Mach 2.35; 80,000 feet interception ceiling, 160 nm interception radius

BAC P.45 Jaguar FRS Mk.3
In 1964 BAC building on its work on variable-geometry wings developed the P.45 series of strike/ trainer aircraft to fulfil a need for a supersonic trainer and fighter able to serve overseas for multi-role tasks. AST 362 for a trainer was fulfilled and the RAF soon authorised the type. Co-operation was offered to the French but they pulled out during 1967. The first P.45 powered by an RB.168 Spey engine first flew on October 16 1968 and the trainer T Mk.1 entered service in late 1970 as an advanced trainer. The Royal Navy in 1970 ordered 12 such trainers as the T Mk.4. The RAF received 165 single-seat strike Jaguar GR Mk.2 fighters from 1971. The Navy brought 57 FRS Mk.3 fighters equipped with Blue Fox radar and these entered service in 1974 and remained in use until 1993.
Crew 1 (2 trainer); armament 2x 30mm ADEN (in rear-fuselage pods) and one AS.30/ Martel ASM or 2x 1,000lb bombs or 2x Sidewinder/ 4x Taildog AAMs; engine 1x 15,000-25,500lb RR RB.168-1R Spey, Mach 1.1 at sea level, M 2.2 at 36,000 feet.

All-Weather Fighters
De Havilland DH.110 Sea Vixen FAW Mk.1 and FAW Mk.2
De Havilland won Specifications F.4/48 and N.40//46 for an RAF and FAA all-weather fighter with the DH.110 design. The first DH.110 took to the skies on 26 September 1951, the RAF switched to the Gloster Javelin but the Navy stuck with the DH.110 Sea Vixen. In September 1954 the Navy received the first of 120 FAW Mk.1 fighters. These had an armament of cannon with the brand-new AI.18 radar. From 1959 work began on an improved variant. This first flew in June 1962 powered by two RR Spey turbofans with extended booms for extra fuel and armed with an all missile/ rocket armament and equipped with an improved AI.18X radar. 67 were converted from Mark 1 aircraft and 30 new-built aircraft were also brought. These were in service until 1968.
Mk 1 Crew 2; armament 4x 30mm ADEN and 2x 1,000lb bombs; engines 2x 11,250lb RR Avon 208, 645mph at 30,000 feet
Mk 2 Crew 2; armament two Mircocell 2in rocket packs and four Red Top AAMs or 4x 1,000lb bombs or 2x 1,000lbs bombs and two Bullpup ASMs; engines 2x 11,060-19,250lb RR RB.168 Spey; Mach 0.985 (M 1.5 in dive);

Hawker P.1125 Sea Hurricane FAW Mk.1
Developed from Sidney Camm’s private venture P.1121 Hurricane which entered RAF service in 1963 by the Navy to replace the Sea Vixen in the all-weather interception role. A new folding wing was developed and the fuselage was strengthened and extra fuel added along with an extra crewman as a radar operator/ navigator. The electronics included the new J-Band AI.25 radar with the capability to use radar-homing AAMs. The Navy ordered 150 Sea Hurricanes in 1960 but only 120 were completed. The first flew in July 1963 with entry into service in 1965. The last was retired in 1982.
Crew 2; armament 50x 2in Microcell rockets and two or four Red Top/ Blue Dolphin AAMs; engine 1x 17,400-23,800lb Gyron PS.26/6; Mach 1.3 at sea level, M 2.35 at 36,000 feet.

BAC Type 583 Sea Viper FAW Mk.1
In 1962 as work on the Hawker P.1123 got under way the RAF and Navy issued a joint requirement for a replacement for the Hurricane family in RAF/FAA use for a new 1970s warplane with a multi-role capability. BAC (Vickers) quickly rejected VTOL capability as too technical and instead designed a small, sleek two-seat twin-engined supersonic fighter, the Type 583. It has variable-geometry wings with flap, aileron and leading-edge slat blowing and was powered by two RB.153/61 engine then under development for Germany. Many systems from the TSR.2 were fitted including HUD and navigation systems alongside the new 30in Aspinall CW radar, the Blue Falcon. This pushed back development and the first Type 983 didn’t fly until 30 August 1969 and Spey turbofans were substituted for the RB.153. Service entry was late 1973 and 126 were brought. The last wasn’t retired until 1997.
Crew 2, armament 4x Red Top/ Blue Dolphin AAMs or 8x 1,000lb bombs or one WE.177 or two Martel ASMs; engines 2x 15,000-25,500lb RR RB.168-1R Spey; Mach 1.1 at sea level, M 2.5 at altitude.

Strike Aircraft
Fairey Gannet S Mk.5
In early 1956 work began to replace the Westland Wyvern torpedo-fighter. The Navy wanted a long-range turboprop strike aircraft to operate in low-intensity wars. Fairey offered a variant of the Gannet in mid-1956 and the first production aircraft few in the summer of 1957. The navigator was seated behind the pilot in a new cockpit with larger canopy, the bomb bay was retained but the wings now held four 30mm ADEN cannon and hardpoints for four bombs and sixteen rockets were fitted. Extra fuel was carried in the former radar and third cockpit area. Total production was 94 and the last wasn’t retired until 1967.
Crew 2; armament 4x 30mm ADEN and 4x internal and 4x external 1,000lb bombs and 16x 3in rockets; engine 1x 3,035shp Napier Double Mamba 101; 300mph; range 1,080 miles.

Vickers-Supermarine Type 567 Scimitar S Mk.2
The last 24 aircraft of the 100 Scimitar F Mk.1 fighters ordered were completed as two-seat strike aircraft. Already the basic Scimitar looked more suited to the strike rather than fighter role and Supermarine fitted a new nose with side-by-side seating for a pilot and navigator with provision for a radar. An AI.18 was planned but instead a AI.23 was fitted instead of the Blue Silk Doppler navigation radar. The S Mk.2 entered service in May 1960 and was retired during 1966.
Crew 2; armament 6x 1,000lb bombs or 24x 3in rockets or 1x TMB; engine 2x 11,250lb RR Avon 202; 700mph; combat radius 300 miles and ferry range 1,300 miles.

Hawker Siddeley P.145 Buccaneer S Mk.3
The original forty Gyron Junior powered Mark 1 Buccaneers had entered service in July 1962 and were followed by 84 Spey-powered Mark 2 bombers equipped with Blue Parrot radar in 1964. Attempts to find a successor failed while the TSR.2 was swallowing available strike aircraft funds during the later 1960s. Hawker Siddeley rebuffed by the RAF offered the Navy a supersonic Buccaneer. It would have a thinner wing, re-heated Speys and the twin rocket unit developed for the South African Buccaneers. A new four-wheel main undercarriage bogie was developed and the fuselage was lengthened and much of the TSR.2 avionics put into the airframe. A reconnaissance pack with camera and IR Linescanner could be fitted into the bomb bay. The first Mark 3 aircraft flew in September 1968 and during 1970 the first of 59 S Mk.3 bombers entered service. They were retired in 1998, the last Mark 2s having been retired in 1979.
Crew 2; armament up to 16x 1,000lb bombs or four Martel ASMs or two Sidewinder AAMs; engines 2x 11,560-20,515lb RR Spey 202; Mach 1.8; ferry range 3,350 miles.

AEW Aircraft
Fairey Spearfish AEW Mk.2
In 1950 Fairey began converting fifty Spearfish torpedo-bombers with US supplied AN/APS-20A radars as AEW aircraft. The former gunner’s position and twin .50cal turret was removed and two radar operators seated in a longer cockpit area. The Spearfish AEW Mk.2 was superseded by the Gannet AEW Mk.3 in 1960 which re-used the same radars but with some British improvements.
Crew 3; engine 1x 2,585 Bristol Centaurus 57; 287mph; 1,250 mile search range.

Hawker Siddeley P.139A/B Guardian AEW Mk.1 and COD Mk.2
In 1964 Hawker Siddeley began work on a new AEW aircraft and it would prove to be one of the most advanced such aircraft in the world at the time. It carried two new FMICW (Frequency Modulated Interrupted Continuous Wave) radars for 360 degree coverage. It was fully data-linked into the digital CDS system aboard British warships and with other British and US AEW aircraft. Aerial-refuelling was fitted for extra-long stand-off missions and the P.139 was powered by two Spey turbofans. The first prototype flew in June 1969 but the first equipment prototype didn’t fly until March 1971 and service entry was delayed until mid-1974. 20 were built plus ten P.139B Carrier-On-board-Delivery cargo transports which entered service in May 1973. In 1977 four COD Mk.2 aircraft were converted into aerial tankers with two hose-and-drogue pods and fuel tanks in the cargo bay. The last P.139A was retired in 2001 and the last P.139B in 2003.
Crew (A) 6, (B) 2; engines 2x 9,730lb RR RB.203 Trent; 586 mph; 3,800 miles range.

Helicopters
Bristol Type 191 Berkshire HAS Mk.1
One of the prime reasons for developing the tandem-rotor helicopter for Bristol was the ASW role as well as civilian airliner roles. Development dragged on alongside the Type 192 Belvedere and both types ended up remarkably similar. The Leondies piston engines were replaced by Napier Gazelle turboshafts for extra power and reliability but problems with stability and vibration would dog the development of the Berkshire. A mission crew of two operated a dipping-sonar and a shallow weapon bay could accommodate two A/S torpedoes or four depth-charges. The first Type 191 flew in September 1952 but the first Gazelle powered prototype didn’t follow until March 1957. Finally during 1959 the first of 68 HAS Mk.1 helicopters entered service but by then the Westland Wessex was the chosen type for the Navy and all were retired by 1964.
Crew 4; armament 2x A/S Homing torpedoes or four depth charges; engine 2x 1,650shp Napier Gazelle N.Ga.2; range 415 miles.

Westland Westminster HC Mk.1
In 1960 BEA finally ordered 24 Westland Westminster helicopters with seating for 36 passengers. The RAF ordered 24 but within the year had chosen to stick with the much more versatile Fairey Rotodyne (shortly to become a Westland product) and so the Navy received them from April 1962. These were used for Carrier-On-Board-Delivery and as ‘Super-Commando’ helicopters but in the latter role they were too big and couldn’t be housed in the hangars aboard the carriers. By 1965 fewer than 12 remained in service and in 1969 the last were scrapped.
Crew 2 + 40 troops; engines 2x Napier Eland N.El.3; cruising speed 100mph; range 280 miles.

Westland Rotodyne HU Mk.2
From late-1962 the RAF began receiving the first Rotodynes and eventually they would operate 65. The Navy in 1963 requested twelve to replace the Westminster in the COD role but only eight were received during 1965. These could carry up to 68 personnel, trucks, aircraft tugs, fighter fuselages or stores and could be used as flying cranes. They were upgraded during 1975 and were not finally retired until 1987.
Crew 3; engines 2x 5,030shp RR Tyne R.Ty.11;

Boeing-Vertol Chinook HAS Mk.1
In 1964 the RAF and Navy ordered the Chinook to fulfil a joint requirement, NASR 358, for an ASW helicopter and commando ship-to-shore type. The RAF later pulled out in favour of another batch of Rotodynes but the Navy did receive 38 HAS Mk.1 anti-submarine helicopters from 1969. They were only operated aboard the fleet carriers and carried a dipping sonar, ECKO surface-search radar and Doppler navigation radar. Armament was carried in a shallow bay and comprised four homing torpedoes or four depth charges or ne WE.177 depth-bomb. They were retired in 1997.

Fairey Ultralight HAS Mk.1
Developed for the Army as a cheap and easy to operate spotter the Saro Skeeter was eventually purchased and so the Navy was targeted by Fairey for sales. It eventually went for the larger Saro Wasp for anti-submarine work but in 1957 24 Ultralights were brought to operate off temporary platforms aboard RN frigates and were used until 1964.
Crew 2; armament one A/S homing torpedo; engine 1x Blackburn-Turbomeca Palouste with two Fairey rotor-tip pressure jets; cruising speed 95mph.


Audacious Class
Only two Audacious Class ships survived the curtailed building programme after 1945. Eagle and Ark Royal were completed in 1951 and 1953. They were rebuilt with angled decks and steam catapults between 1954 and 1958. In 1962-64 both were further refitted with Type 984 and newer catapults for heavier aircraft. Eagle decommissioned in 1969 and Ark Royal followed in 1973.
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Ark Royal 1951
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Ark Royal 1955
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Ark Royal 1964
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Eagle 1969

Malta Class
In 1945 it was decided to cancel all the Malta Class carriers except for one hull. HMS Malta was rededigned between 1947 and 1951 to take account of wartime experience but the advent of angled decks and steam catapults meant that HMS Malta did not complete until 1957. Upon completion she was among the most modern carriers in the world with the full desired electronic equipment (two Type 984 and full datalinks and CDS system) and aircraft. Four twin 3in/L70 were fitted as were four twin 40mm/L70 but by 1962 two Seacat launchers had also been fitted. HMS was never rebuilt again and remained much as she did in 1957 when she decommissioned in 1975.
[ img ]

1952 Carrier
By 1950 the size od aircraft had grown and the Admiralty began looking at a new generation of carriers big enough to be effective in the future. By now the future fleet was fixed at four fleet carriers (Ark Royal, Eagle, Malta and one new carrier). This carrier was based on the Matla (itself the largest capable of being docked in Britain). The armament was a mix of twin semi-automatic 40mm/L70 and Seacat missiles. The ship replaced plans to rebuild HMS Victorious, that fine old warhorse was decommissioned and the new carrier took her name. She was laid down in 1952 and commissioned in late 1958. She was equal to a US Forrestal Class carrier.
[ img ]

[ img ]
Between 1965 and 1968 she was rebuilt and modernised. Two twin Orange Nell supersonic point-defence missile launchers had replaced the 40mm guns in 1961, during the refit supersonic SeaCat 2 missiles replaced the orginal Sea Cat (it could use the same launcher so only the directors needed altering). New catapults were fitted and Victorious was again fully up-to date and she wasn't decommissioned until 1979.

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Portsmouth Bill
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 12:55 pm
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Coastal (Littoral) forces are stiil embryonic, but I've worked up an original concept from Bombhead, which he developed from the earlier Tenacity. Here we have a much bigger hull, more corvette size, with dual diesel and gas turbine propulsion for range, and the larger hull enabling seakeeping plus the space to fit the guns. Forward we have the single tube 3-in/70, developed from the twin, with similar rate of fire and much less deck penetration (though stil a lot compared to the later guns). Afte we have the twin 40mm twin Bofors in the same mount as on ther Illustrious and other ships. The main attack is by 'Fancy' anti ship torpedo's (peroxide powered) that gives good range; the torpedos are not for reloads at sea, due to the somewhat exitable nature of the peroxide propellant, but after some mishaps (and postumous wards for bravery), the bugs were sorted and the torpedo became a potent anti-ship wepaon in areas where a larger warship would be more at risk: I'm thinking the Med, Far East, North Sea, English Cannel as such. With the massive power of hindsite I'm proposing this as a an early 'steet fighter' concept, so obviously very low end. A development was the asw version with Bidder and sonar - still to come, and a ssm missile version also to come, probably to replace and using the same hull but more modern superstructure.

As such an attractive concept for other navies this type enjoyed orders from navies based around the North Sea and Baltic, and further afield.

[ img ]


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Bombhead
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 5:35 pm
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[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]

[ img ]


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KimWerner
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 7:04 pm
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Bombhead wrote:
Every fleet needs a flagship.Nothing much changed as she was only completed in 1946.It is rumoured she will get a refit by 1962.

[ img ]
Hi Bombhead, I've just stumbled over this thread (I'm a slightly bit interested in RN :D ) and saw you got the same picture of HMS Vanguard's CoA, which I'm have using as model to a CoA-WIP right now. I've chosen that particular because it's very challenging drawing a lion with so much details on, so I would be pleased, if you want it, when I'm finished. I've had worked on it about a week, and the lion is still only half finished, but I'll think it will encourage me to get it finished, if you say yes ;)

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RyanCrierie
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: April 30th, 2011, 7:53 pm
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I'm actually more interested in the "sealed patterns".

Can you give me more information on them and where you got them?


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Bombhead
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: May 1st, 2011, 8:23 am
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Thanks Kim that would be excellent. :)

Ryan.the sealed pattern badges are from a disk called Admiralty Badges Encyclopaedia by TP Stopford.This is available on the net for about £25.If the ship was actually issued a badge( and some were not) it will be on there.


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Thiel
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: May 1st, 2011, 9:02 am
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Portsmouth Bill wrote:
Coastal (Littoral) forces are stiil embryonic, but I've worked up an original concept from Bombhead, which he developed from the earlier Tenacity. Here we have a much bigger hull, more corvette size, with dual diesel and gas turbine propulsion for range, and the larger hull enabling seakeeping plus the space to fit the guns. Forward we have the single tube 3-in/70, developed from the twin, with similar rate of fire and much less deck penetration (though stil a lot compared to the later guns). Afte we have the twin 40mm twin Bofors in the same mount as on ther Illustrious and other ships. The main attack is by 'Fancy' anti ship torpedo's (peroxide powered) that gives good range; the torpedos are not for reloads at sea, due to the somewhat exitable nature of the peroxide propellant, but after some mishaps (and postumous wards for bravery), the bugs were sorted and the torpedo became a potent anti-ship wepaon in areas where a larger warship would be more at risk: I'm thinking the Med, Far East, North Sea, English Cannel as such. With the massive power of hindsite I'm proposing this as a an early 'steet fighter' concept, so obviously very low end. A development was the asw version with Bidder and sonar - still to come, and a ssm missile version also to come, probably to replace and using the same hull but more modern superstructure.

As such an attractive concept for other navies this type enjoyed orders from navies based around the North Sea and Baltic, and further afield.

[ img ]
I'm not certain that ship would be a great success, at least not in the Baltic's and Scandinavia.
On one hand it's too big to perform a torpedo boats role, even with Mark 12 torpedoes, on the other it doesn't have the weaponry to stand up to the bigger Soviet units, and it's not big enough no mount the command facilities necessary to command a MTB squadron.
Also, the general consensus in the torpedo squadron was that more than four torpedoes was a waste of space.
A four fish spread was considered enough to guarantee a hit, and this was with slower but longer ranged WWII era torpedoes.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: The Alternative Postwar Royal NavyPosted: May 1st, 2011, 11:19 am
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I don't agree Thiel.
The Tenacity would be roughly late 50s. Name me any FAC (as they became) that could match this for size and power. The Soviet P5 and P6s will get minced by this boat. Yes it is big but its also more seaworthy and the outline of the boat is still pretty low.
Six 'Fancy' guided torpedoes is again superior to any "dumb" torpedo outfit and again probably pre-dates most foreign attempts. I agree six may be overkill. Later Komars and Osas will outrange her with thier SS-N-2 Styx but they haven't got the gunpower to close with her. In close qaurters action the Tenacity wins hands down. Against aircraft the accuracy is likely to be poor but twin 40mm and a single 76mm forces them to remain futuer away (especially in the pre-ASM days). For the record I perferred two twin 40mm but Bill wanted the 76mm for longer-range fire and for anti-ship use. I aslo see the type as more suited to choke points and use in the Far East and Persian Gulf, probably Western Med too.
I agree the lack of a director is a problem but control would by visual sights and on the mount. Again far from ideal.

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