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Vossiej
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 27th, 2012, 12:33 pm
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acelanceloet wrote:
other then that, it looks like great work altogether, although I really miss the use of the driecilinder submarine ....
You must have mist him than ;)
[ img ]

I am aware that most parts on the ships are outdated, that is because most of them haven't been touched
since a year or so... I am now currently concentrating on the civil aspect of the AU, but maybe in the end I
will bring everything up to date.

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 27th, 2012, 12:41 pm
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ah, then you have missed this :P
[ img ]

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Portsmouth Bill
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 27th, 2012, 1:16 pm
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Quote:
About the MRPF, to be honest, I cannot recall from which I based this design off, if that is what you mean with ''dna''
About the Shetlands, I believe I named the origin in the first few pages, but the basic idea was the ancient tie with the
Frisian Kingdom (which existed before the UK, or Britain, became a country), and also because the Island of Swolland always
had a mix of Dutch, Scandinavian and Brittish people, it would be somewhat feasible (in my opinion).

I'll have to look into the GK issue, I thought the position would not be to bad...

And finally, what flag over the Portsmouth Towers? Please tell me what exactly is the problem
Thanks shipmate; I reckon you've got a reasonable justifcation to claim the Shetlands, though this would still create some tensions between the two nations - though with the AU you've created that may well have been resolved in The Netherlands interests.

The MRPF is certainly a nice balanced design, so its 'dna' isn't an issue.

The G.K. position; you've got one hanging over the stern without any space below, and the one forward I'm not sold on - it looks a bit close to the missile launcher.

On the map; you have a Union Flag of GB on the English part, and it made me smile as it's near as damn it over my residence - such good taste ;)

Minor quibbles; still one of the more interesting and thought out AU's, please keep it coming :D


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Raxar
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 27th, 2012, 1:36 pm
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This is great stuff. Usually I'm not one for modern vessels, but these look amazing Vossiej! Keep it up! :D

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Vossiej
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 27th, 2012, 11:58 pm
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Quote:
Portsmouth Bill
Ahh, and I was looking at the actual city of Portsmouth ;)
Quote:
acelanceloet
I indeed have missed her, that's the result of being inactive for over 1,5 years I gues

Now with all this great feedback from you all, I am seriously considering reactivating and expanding this AU.
All the text I wrote about it was done back in 2011, so a lot more ideas are floating around in my head.

Stay put! :)

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 28th, 2012, 9:24 am
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I can't wait to see more ;)

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Psilander
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 28th, 2012, 10:36 am
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Very nice

A few questions?
- You use the CV90 in different variants, why not use the antiaircraft version aswell (CV9040 LVKV) instead of the Ceetah II? AMOS can also be fitted to CV90.LINK

- Minehunters? Netherlands and Belgium have a huge mine problem after the war and are lead nations in NATO on minclearence.

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Vossiej
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 28th, 2012, 11:08 am
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History & former ships of the Navy

Origins
At first the Dutch navy had a private character. Wealthy merchants and local authorities in the many ports of the Low Countries took initiative to arm ships since the 15th century and incidentally attacked pirates and foreign competitors. Defensive measures to protect the merchant ships could include sailing in a convoy and arming the merchants themselves. Offensive actions could include taking enemy ships by force. This was actively supported by the Dutch authorities in times of war, who handed out letters of marque, allowing Dutch captains to attack and, if possible capture enemy ships and their cargoes. The central authorities tried, in vain, to increase supervision on these private navies. By decree of Maximilian of Austria, on 8 January 1488 the forerunner of the Dutch Navy was formed. The role of the navy had a legal status from then on, and the tasks of defending the country at sea was the responsibility of an admiral, appointed by the sovereign. However, many provinces surreptitiously created small navies of their own, without informing the admiral.

A world power
The Dutch revolt (1568-1648) resulted in a better command structure of the Dutch navy. The government of the newly established Dutch Republic installed five admiralties (de Maze, Amsterdam, Zeeland, the Noorderkwartier, and Friesland) which had offices in Rotterdam, Amsterdam, Middelburg, Hoorn, Enkhuizen, and Dokkum (later Harlingen).
During the 17th century the Dutch Republic was involved in many wars, many of them at sea. The main goal of the Dutch navy was to protect shipping lanes all over the world and, if need be, to repel a naval invasion of Dutch territory.
Until 1648 Spain was the enemy; a Dutch fleet destroyed the main force of a large Spanish fleet still under construction at Gibraltar in 1607. Other activities included blocking the port of Antwerp and the Flemish coast (to prevent the Spanish troops there from getting supplies) and escorting the Dutch merchants in the Baltic.
In the course of the 17th century, Dutch wealth and maritime expansion was the source of much envy across Europe, but especially in England. When the anti-Dutch Navigation Ordinance of 1651 was passed, tensions ran high. During the First Anglo-Dutch War English fleet concentrated on privateering against the Dutch merchant fleet. An example of this is the battle of Dungeness in December 1652, in which Maarten Tromp was able to keep the Channel open for Dutch trade. In the second Anglo-Dutch War 5 major battles took place, nearly all of them in English waters. It was during this period that the Raid on the Medway (1667) took place, the worst naval defeat in English history until this very day. The third Anglo-Dutch war was in fact a conspiracy between France, England, Cologne and Münster to attack the Netherlands and destroy the Dutch Republic as a major naval power.
[ img ]
The Royal Prince and other vessels at the Four Days Fight, 11–14 June 1666 by Abraham Storck depicts a battle of the Second Anglo-Dutch War. In the foreground the Swiftsure with Berkeley sinks. On the right the grounded Prince Royal with Admiral Ayscue surrenders by firing white smoke; de Ruyter on the Zeven Provinciën accepts. In between the HMS Royal Charles can just be seen with a broken mast.

Although the Dutch fleet was the largest of the world at the time, the combined fleet of France and England quickly put the Dutch in a defensive position, but due to the tactical brilliance of Michiel de Ruyter, it managed to inflict so much damage to both fleets in three consecutive battles in Dutch territorial waters at the nation's most anxious moment, that an invasion had to be called off. The Treaty of Westminster (1674) marked the end of the trade wars between the English and the Dutch. A new era arrived in 1688, when a new Anglo-French alliance seemed imminent; the Dutch stadtholder William III took a desperate gamble by sailing to England with a large fleet that landed in Brixham in Devon. He marched to London and toppled his father in law James II, who was in a very weak position then. William had himself proclaimed King of England, effectively making his greatest maritime rival an ally. In the 25 years after this 'Glorious Revolution' the Dutch and the English successfully fought together with various other allies against France, then at the height of its powers during the reign of Louis XIV. The naval war zone shifted from the North Sea and the English Channel to the French coast and Mediterranean. At the end of the War of the Spanish succession (1713) the series of wars ended.
At the start of the 17th century the squadrons of the Dutch fleet were reinforced with merchant ships adapted for battle in earlier conflicts. The introduction of the line-tactic increased the demand for ships with more manoeuvrability, speed and crew experience. In 1653 the Dutch government decided to build 60 ships, and 10 years later they placed another order for 60 more. The flagship of the Republic, De Zeven Provinciën, was fitted with 96 guns. For comparison, the British HMS Victory, built more than a century later, had only 8 guns more.

With about 4000 sailors the Dutch navy was a relatively small employer in peacetime, but in times of war thousands of men more were hired. Flag officers and captains were themselves responsible for hiring the ship's crew. Usually a ship's crew were hired for only one campaign, excluding the officers. Since the early 17th century, experienced captains were employed for long periods of time by the Dutch navy; they were responsible for the ships provisions, and when they bought supplies for less money than the government provided they could keep the rest, and a smart captain could make a small fortune this way in peacetime.
The crew itself were mostly natives or foreign inhabitants of the many Dutch harbour towns. In 1665 regiments of soldiers were deployed aboard the ships. These soldiers would later become famous and feared Dutch marines.

By the end of the 17th century the Dutch navy was the most powerful navy in the world.
[ img ]
Michiel Adriaenszoon de Ruyter, Lieutenant-Admiral of the United Provinces by Ferdinand Bol, painted 1667
[ img ]
The world and Dutch possessions shown in orange

Decline and French Domination
The Dutch Republic went into decline after 1713, and in the late 18th century its navy was no longer a match for the French and even less for the British navy. An ambitious shipbuilding program in 1780 could not prevent the disastrous Fourth Anglo-Dutch War (1780-1784), and at the peace of Paris the Dutch had to allow free passage throughout the East Indies and effectively allowing the Royal Navy to become the new power of the seas.
Several naval major reforms concerning education and naval command structure took place after the Batavian Revolution (1795). The federative decentralised naval command was now replaced by a central organisation in The Hague, reflecting the increasingly centralised structure of the country. The warships stayed in the drydocks, although a number of ships managed to follow the fleeing stadtholder William V to Great Britain; others, like the ships sailing in East Asia, were later joined with the forces of William V.
After the surrender of a naval squadron near Saldanha Bay (1796) and the defeat at the Battle of Camperdown (1797), the surrender of the fleet near the Vlieter in 1799 proved to be the death of the Batavian navy. In the 3 years the Netherlands were a part of Imperial France the navy was unable to operate independently.

Insurrection
The Netherlands regained their independence and on December 7, 1813 and formed the United Kingdom of the Netherlands (1815–present) (Dutch: Verenigd Koninkrijk der Nederlanden, French: Royaume-Uni des Pays-Bas) is the unofficial name used to refer to the Kingdom of the Netherlands during the period after it was first created from part of the First French Empire till the present day. The kingdom almost collapsed during the Belgian uprising in August 1830.

In August 1830 the opera La Muette de Portici, involving the repression of Neapolitans, was staged in Brussels. Performances of this show seemed to crystallise a sense of nationalism and "Hollandophobia" in Brussels, and spread to the rest of the South. Rioting ensued, chiefly aimed at the kingdom's unpopular justice minister, who lived in Brussels. An infuriated William responded by sending troops to repress the riots. However, the riots had spread to other Southern cities. The riots quickly became popular uprisings. Soon an independent state of Belgium was proclaimed. The next year, William I sent his sons to Belgium to repress this state. Although initially victorious, the Dutch army was forced to retreat after the threat of French intervention.

[ img ]
Rogier à la tête des volontaires de Liège - Rogier at the head of the Liège volunteers (Charles Soubre, 1878)

A Belgian victory seemed imminent, but on June 2nd 1831 William I traveled to London to remember William IV of the United Kingdom of the arrangements signed in the Dutch-Anglo treaty of 1814, which stated both countries would provide military aid in times of need. And so the British Kingdom threatened the French that if they wouldn't retreat from the southern part of the Netherlands, they would declare war. The French Republic was in no state of full out war with Brittain after the fall of Napoleon's empire, and retreated its forces from the southern provinces.

After order was restored in the young kingdom, The House of Orange-Nassau came to be the official monarchs of the new state.

Resurrection
After the new Kingdom was firmly in place, the Dutch navy suffered from a constant shortage of manpower. Because of the treaty active between the Netherlands and Brittain, the Dutch government wanted most young people to have a good education or working for the benefit of the country as a whole. This forced the Navy to hire crew from its colonies; this increased the total employees from overseas from 5000 in 1850 to over 10,000 in 1900. In 1917 the first airplanes were added to the navy; the first women were employed in 1944, but were not in combat functions until 1980.

After the disappearance of the ship of the line a whole array of ship classes and types were created. The invention of the propeller launched the mass use of steam-propelled ships. Wood was replaced by iron. New developments in the field of artillery increased a gun's range and improved its accuracy. Around 1900 torpedoes and mines created a new dimension in naval warfare.

Between 1883 and 1889 naval squadrons were sent to Asia to support the Dutch East India Company. After the East India Company was not able to have weapons on there ships anymore (They did not went bankrupt....!!! Next part :D , Dutch naval tasks shifted greatly towards East Asia, until some 60% of the entire navy was situated there around 1890. Alongside the Colonial Navy, administrative and civil tasks were carried out by the Government Navy.

The First World War
To be added, this requires a lot of thought, as the Netherlands in real life never participated!

The dark days
During the Second World War, the Dutch navy was based in Swolland an Allied countries after the mainland Netherlands was conquered by Nazi Germany. During the first few days of the war, most ships that were under construction, or nearing completion, were moved from Vlissingen and Den helder to Cleaverdam and London. A total of 1 heavy cruiser, 5 light cruisers, 11 destroyers, 14 submarines and 22 several smaller ships where moved to safety between May 1st and May 6th. The Dutch navy had its headquarters in Cleaverdam, London, Perth and Sri Lanka. Around the world Dutch naval units were responsible for transporting troop, for example during Operation Dynamo in Dunkirk and on D-Day, they escorted both their own and Allied convoys and attacked enemy targets. During the war the navy suffered heavy losses, especially in defending the Dutch East Indies, most notably the Battle of the Java Sea in which the commander, Dutchman Karel Doorman, went down with his ship together with 1000 of his crew.
[ img ]
HNLMS De Ruyter at anchor, c. February 1942, shortly before the battle.

During the relentless Japanese offensive of February through April 1942 in the Dutch East Indies, the Dutch navy in Asia was virtually annihilated, and it sustained losses of a total of 20 ships (including two light cruisers) and 2500 sailors killed - as much as the Americans at Pearl Harbor. The Dutch navy suffered from years of under-funding and came ill-prepared to face a technically and organizationally extremely well prepared, powerful and dedicated enemy, that also brought more and heavier ships with better weapons into battle, among others the Long Lance-torpedo, with which the cruiser Haguro downed the light cruiser HNLMS De Ruyter. This vessel was in no way a match for Haguro.
[ img ]
Bombs from Japanese aircraft falling near the Dutch light cruiser HNLMS Java during a battle in the Java Sea.

Despite all the setbacks, a small force of submarines based in Western Australian sank more Japanese ships in the first weeks of the war than the entire British and American navies together, an exploit which earned Admiral Helfrich the nickname "Ship-a-day Helfrich". The aggressive pace of operations against the Japanese serves as one contributing factor to both the heavy losses sustained and the greater number of successes scored as compared to the British and American assets in the region.
Both British and American forces believed that the Dutch admiral in charge of the joint-Allied force was being far too aggressive. Later in the war, a few Dutch submarines scored some remarkable hits, including one on a Kriegsmarine U-boat in the Mediterranean Sea.

After the war, the Navy was totally devastated. In total only 24 submarines out of the 67 survived the war, it had lost 1 heavy cruiser, 3 light cruisers, 9 destroyers, 6 corvettes and 12 smaller ships, along with 7,600 death. By 1945 the navy had lost over 60% of it's ships.
[ img ]
Surviving Dutch submarines along side HMNLS Mercurius near Batavia, december 1945

A new naval power rising from it's ashes
Even before the war in Europe was over, the Dutch and other Allied nations were thinking of how to re-arm Europe after the war, especially against the Soviets (who were starting to look like a threat near the end of the war). Because Dutch naval shipbuilding was well established in Europe, Dutch shipyards were told to prepare for major orders after the war. The Dutch Navy was, together with Brittain, to be the main defender in the North Sea and was also to play part in the US first fleet in the Pacific.

After the war, the Netherlands developed its defence policy in close cooperation with other NATO members. The establishment of the Warsaw pact in 1955 intensified the arms race between West and East. Technical innovations rapidly emerged; the introduction of radar, sonar and guided missiles were particularly relevant for the navy. The Soviet-dominated Warsaw pact was perceived as the main permanent threat; this made a fixed military strategy useful. From 1965 onwards the Netherlands joined certain permanent NATO squadrons like the Standing Naval Force Atlantic. In the 1960s the Soviet Union abandoned its traditional land based strategy and built up a navy with world wide impact, with many submarines and even an aircraft carrier. The main task of NATO navies was the protection of shipping lanes across the Northern Atlantic between the NATO-allies in North America and western Europe. Because of the Dutch being superior in submarine building especially in the last years of the war, NATO requested in 1952 the Dutch to maintain a strong, home-built submarine fleet operational to patrol the North Sea and Atlantic for Soviet ships. This resulted in the partially US-funded post war Dutch submarine building program.

A new order of battle was decided in 1950's white paper:
- 1 or 2 second hand aircraft carriers,
- 1 Heavy cruiser (to be finished from the pre-WW2 hull)
- 4 Light cruisers (to be new built or second hand)
- 24 Destroyers (ex-British/USA, later to be replaced by new-built)
- 24 Frigates (ex-British/USA, later to be replaced by new-built)
- 18 Submarines (24 survived the war, but 13 were sold after the war to fund other projects)
- 48 Minesweepers

[ img ]
The aircraft carrier HMNLS Karel Doorman and two cruisers in Den Helder

The ships
They will have to be drawn... ;)

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Last edited by Vossiej on December 28th, 2012, 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Vossiej
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 28th, 2012, 11:19 am
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Location: The Netherlands
Psilander wrote:
Very nice

A few questions?
- You use the CV90 in different variants, why not use the antiaircraft version aswell (CV9040 LVKV) instead of the Ceetah II? AMOS can also be fitted to CV90.LINK

- Minehunters? Netherlands and Belgium have a huge mine problem after the war and are lead nations in NATO on minclearence.
I'll be happy to explain Psilander,

About the CV90, it was the one of the first land vehicles to be bought without Dutch involvement after a long time. In my AU, a Dutch defense company (Fox International, working in close relationship with Rheinmetall Nederland) developed a lot of military equipment (most in a joint operation with Krauss-Maffei) for the Dutch Army. When in the late 90's a replacement for the Cheetah was needed, the company was already designing variations of the leopard 2, and when the Army disposed some of it's Leopards, they were test-fitted with this new turret (later on more units were ordered). This also resulted in the Leopard 3 FSV, which was also a joint production between the two companies.

When in 2004 the YPR-700 series were phased out, the Dutch government had to set out a European tender (according to the new European regulations) for a new IFV. Fox International could not offer any IFV at that time, and of all bids the CV90 was chosen as the new IFV for the Army.

And about AMOS, as far as I know the Dutch want to use the Boxer in real life for all sorts of missions, so in that case I wanted to stick as much to the truth as possible ;)

Minehunters will be drawn,, a total of 48 were needed right after the war, with up to 26 active up to 1994. Currently only 14 are in service divided over two classes.

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Vossiej
Post subject: Re: The NetherlandsPosted: December 29th, 2012, 9:43 pm
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Historical ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy

Holland Class Cruisers (1896-1934)
The Holland class was a class of four pantserdekschepen (protected cruisers) of the Royal Netherlands Navy. The class was built in two groups, each consisting of four ships. The first four ships were ordered in 1894 after the preceding ship HMNLS Koning Wilhelmina der Nederlanden performed much better than expected. The design was based on the British Apollo-class cruiser, but improved with all the lessons learned from previous types of cruisers. The first 4 ships of the class were 107.3 metres long while the last four were 107.7 metres long, had a beam of 14.8 metres, a draught of 5.41 metres, and had a displacement of 3,840 ton. The last 4 ships were slightly larger and displaced 130 tons more than the first 4 ships. The ships were equipped with 2 shaft reciprocating engines, which were rated at 10,000 ihp (7,500 kW) and produced a top speed of 20 knots (37 km/h). The ships had 5-centimetre (2.0 in) deck armour. All ships carried a standard crew of 348 heads.
[ img ]

The ships were constructed at serveral shipyards in the Netherlands, NSM Amsterdam, De Schelde, Flushing, Wilton-Fijenoord, Rotterdam, De Voss, Kleverdam.
[ img ]

The armament varied per ship, but were all standard equipped with the following:
As fitted, 1896
2x single 5.9in No.3 (150mm)
8x single 4.7in No.2 (120mm)
4x single 3in No.2 (76mm)
2x bow 45cm (18 in) torpedo tubes

After update, 1914
2x single 5.9in No.3 (150mm)
8x single 4.7in No.2 (120mm)
4x single 3in No.2 (76mm)
8x 1pdr revolver guns (37mm)
4x 3in mortars (75mm)
2x bow 45cm (18 in) torpedo tubes


In 1934 the first four ships were decommissioned and replaced by newer cruisers. Initially all eight ships were to be decommissioned by the mid 1930's, however because of the ship's wide beam, they were known as very stable platforms. Because of this the Navy decided that the last four ships were to be converted to harbor defense ships in the late 1930's. The ships were fitted with mostly British AA weapons and were stationed in Kleverdam and Den Helder.

After AA update, 1938
8x 4.5 inch guns QF Mark I in twin mounting UD Mark III (4x2)
4x single 4.7in No.2 (120mm) (four were removed in favor of QF 2 pdr Mark VIII pom-pom's)
8x QF 2 pdr Mark VIII (four-barrel version)

When the Second World War broke out in the Netherlands, the converted AA platforms HMNLS Gelderland & HMNLS Brabant came almost imminently under attack by German Stuka's. HMNLS Brabant was severely damaged on the 6th of May 1940, and scuttled by Dutch sailors on the 17th of May 1940. By the 17th, the German invader had captured the Naval base of Den Helder, and the HMNLS Gelderland was captured to be commissioned into German service as the Niobe. The HMNLS Utrecht & HMNLS Limburg were based in Kleverdam, Zwolland and survived the initial attack, however HMNLS Limburg was sunk by the German submarine U-36 on the 17th of May (what a coincidence) when she was en route to Great Brittain. The HMNLS Utrecht survived the war, and is now on display in her original lay-out in the National Maritime Museum in Rotterdam.

[ img ]
Unknown Holland Class cruiser, probably HMNLS Zeeland somewhere in the North Sea

[ img ]
The HMNLS Utrecht as harbor defense ship near Kleverdam, Februari 1939

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