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Krakatoa
Post subject: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 6th, 2015, 9:33 am
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Incan Empire.

Depending how far you want to go back, the genesis of the Incan Empire was laid down in the migration of the human race out of Africa, across Asia, crossing the Asia/America land bridge that is now the Bering Strait, and down through the Americas. The furthest south this migrating reached was the region we now know as the Argentinian Campos. This area was reached about 5500BC. South America was the farthest that human population had to travel. The numbers that eventually reached the Campos were small, but finding abundant game and food there was no further need to migrate.

Numbers increased and spread further back up through South America till an area that covered what is present day Argentina and Chile were loosely aligned through tribal allegiances. About 1200BC a great leader appeared and the Campos peoples became united and through a time of plenty the population expanded as did the borders of the Empire. For 500 years the Campos Empire ruled most of South America. Eventually the sheer size of the Empire worked against it with smaller and meaner minded people achieving positions of power where they were building their own little empires. Corruption was rife and the last God/Emperor was weak and the Empire fell apart with internal strife revolution and civil wars breaking out. A time of darkness fell over the Campos peoples.

A thousand years passed until about 500AD when a new group of leaders appeared. By some stroke of genes coalescing into one family where strength and intelligence was the prime traits. This ruling family, its heirs and offshoots would rule South America for the next 1500 years. The Yupanqui family rose to prominence in an area of what is present day Bolivia. The patriarch of the family Tambo Yupanqui set in stone the rules by which the family should rule. Tambo was the eldest of 7, five brothers and two sisters. Between the 7 siblings they produced over 70 children of which 52 reached maturity. It was these children on which the Empire was to be formed. The five brothers split 'South America' into four 'kingdoms' while the fifth brother would be elected Emperor.

[ img ]

Of course while the areas had been set, each brother would have to go out with his tribal army and take the land under his control. Tambo knew instinctively that the way to control the Empire would require the best lines of communication. Horses and fast sea craft would be the fastest means of communication. That would be one of the Emperors major works, setting up the communication lines to and from what would be the five Capital cities. Each of the four Kingdoms would supply the revenue to the Emperor for all the major works to be carried out throughout the Empire. One of the other major things the Emperor would keep track of was the bloodlines of the Empire. Arranged marriages were the norm and for the nobility this was done at the Emperors behest. This gave the Emperor his largest say in how the Empire would be ruled in the future. Whenever an Emperor died, the new Emperor was elected from one of the four kings of the realm.

As the family increased exponentially the tighter the grip could be exerted on the kingdoms. With stability in the Empire, the Emperor could oversee the resource and development of the Empires war machine. By the year 1000AD the Empire was in control of South America but had been stopped from further expansion in the isthmus of Panama by the Toltec and later Aztec empires. Both sets of Empires flip-flopped between peace and war depending on the bloodthirstyness of the current Emperors. This war and peace cycle made each Empire stronger, producing new weapons and styles of warfare.

First European contact came with one of Christopher Columbus' ships running aground on the coast of Chinchansuyu (modern day Venezuela). The survivors were cared for by the local people, who started dying from an unknown disease. The survivors were rife with smallpox and syphilis and the other European diseases that the Incan Empire had never encountered before. Over 20% of the Empires population would die before the surviving population would start creating its own immunities to these diseases. Another 40 years would pass before the next contact with Europeans in the form of the Spanish Conquistadores who came down the Panamanian isthmus after defeating the Aztecs.

The intervening 40 years had been put to good use by the Incan Empire. The wrecked ship had provided many interesting discoveries, including guns and gunpowder. A crash program in metallurgy and casting for guns big and small was instituted with the help of some of the survivors from the wreck with the skills required (whether they wanted to or not).

[ img ]

By the time Pizaro and Cortez came down the Panamanian Isthmus, they ran into a well drilled and well defended series of positions. The Conquistadores were stopped in their tracks. The Spanish next sought to go round the fortified positions by landing troops behind enemy lines by ship. It was then that the Incan Empires most closely guarded secret was revealed. Two mighty ships of the line with 8 x 40lb culverins and a 30lb bow chaser. The Spanish ships were slaughtered, there was no real warship among them and the Incan ships were too strong or agile.

[ img ]

The current Emperor realised very well that this would not be the only European power to try to come and defeat the Empire. The Empire was too large to be able to have troops everywhere strong enough to be able to contain or defeat a landing force. The only way to alleviate the problem was to find a European 'friend' and make an alliance with them that would make the Empire safer. Ships were dispatched with two of the senior Princes aboard to Europe. Only one of which talked a smattering of French while both had some pidgin-Spanish. Having beaten off a Spanish Army, the Incan envoys had France, England, The Holy Roman Empire, that were big enough to make an Alliance that would mean anything. All had their pros and cons, while each wanted their priests to have access to the Empire to be free to find converts to Christianity. The envoys find that the 'church' has been split asunder by the King of England. France and the Holy Roman Empire are allied to Spain so the envoys end up in England. King Henry VIII is also looking for allies. A mutual defence pact is signed in 1536. This gives the Church of England first crack at converting the South American Kingdoms to Christianity. It also give the English freebooters/pirates (take your pick) bases from which they can attack ships going to and from the Spanish controlled area of Central America.

What it gave the Incans was access to the shipwrights and gunsmiths the Empire needed to produce better weaponry and with the knowledge being passed to be able to keep up with new inventions.

The Empire had been pulling itself out of the dark ages and into parity with the European nations. The Empires assayers and geologists new where there was plenty of iron ore in various parts of the Empire. This had been found when a survey of the Empire in the 1300's had been carried out at the behest of the Emperor. The iron so far had been used for the production of swords, spear tips, arrow tips and other paraphenalia that went with that age. From 1500 the Empire had been looking for iron ore for large casting for artillery for both the Army and the new Navy ships.

For the next 400 years, the Incan Empire assisted the British Empire when the British were attacked. Incan troops were present at all of the major battles and wars of the 16th to 19th centuries. The Incans would not help with the internal problems of the British Empire. No Incan troops were involved in the war of independence. It was a time of change for the Incan Empire as well. The sheer size of the Yupanqui family (still faithfully being recorded at the Emperors Palace), that it came to a point where the younger members wanted more say in the affairs of Empire. A few ritual killings of a few of the ring leaders was done to 'encourage the others'. But the seeds of revolution were set. In 1744 the lands exploded with violence and revolution. Just three months later and three of the four kings were dead and the Emperor under siege in his Palace preserve at Cuzco.

The lands of the Incan Empire became fractured as borders were reset time and again as internal strife continued. The Emperor retained his title and was given what became known as Yupanqui. The largest section was retained by the final King still alive who's loyal troops had managed to keep him alive and fought the rebels and defeated them. Once the civil wars had finished by 1752 the current Emperor called a meeting of all the new overlords of the newly founded lands. This meeting brought final peace to the lands again and a new map was drawn of the new Incan Empire. The Emperor was still to remain but his roles would be reduced and any new Emperor would be elected from the leaders of the new nations.

[ img ]

With the new boundaries set, the Emperor new it was no time for recriminations but a time to heal the wounds. Something all the Yupanqui Emperors had was brains. Part of the selection process for the elected Emperor was to pass the tests set down by old Tambo all those years ago. It was still an honour for a family member to be elected Emperor. But the power of the Emperor was much reduced. No longer was the Emperor Supreme Commander of the armed forces. Each kingdom was now responsible for its own destiny. It was now that the Spanish tried to do what they had been thwarted from 200 years before. To turn South America into a set of Spanish Colonies. A large fleet was assembled with transports full of troops and these ships sailed for a landing in Chinchansuyu. A fast courier vessel brought the news, and another courier from the British Admiral at Antigua stated that the Caribbean fleet was sailing to help the Incan navy intercept the Spanish Fleet. What became known as the Battle of Trinidad of 1754 was fought between ships of the Incan Navy and the British Navy versus a Spanish Armada. While the fleets were of similar sizes the Spanish were hampered by the transports they had to guard. The British Admiral Forbes led the combined fleet brilliantly and captured or destroyed over half the Spanish Fleet. The rest withdrawing at high speed.

This finished the European powers attempts to colonise any part of South America.

Incan forces fought with the British against the French and Spanish during the Napoleonic Wars. Then a period of peace for South America ensued during which the Incan Navies went from wooden walls to steel ships in line with the British and US navies. From 1880 the United States made overtures to the Incan Empire to have a mutual defence pact. An Alliance Treaty was signed in 1882. This worked well as the US was another English speaking people. Since the Treaty with Britain of 1536, the Incans had taken 'English' as the Empires second language and language of Diplomacy.

Receiving Naval assistance from both the United States and Britain gave the Incan Nations an edge over most other Naval powers.

We have now reached the point in this narrative where ship drawings will appear to support the continued history of the Incan Empire.

If you have got this far in reading the Incan Empire Histories, then you have done very well. It is always difficult to cover thousands of years of history and keep a reader interested. (Trying not to be boring), I hope the following ships will also keep your interest.


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Rusel
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 1:28 am
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Gidday Krakatoa
You'll need to leave out the Syphilis component of the epidemic as it originated in Sth Am.
Also form my studies a 20% loss of population can permanently set back a society especially skilled individuals are killed before skill transfer.
Small Pox was used as a weapon and many groups collapsed as a result.
eg from wiki
"The exact origin of syphilis is disputed.[5] Syphilis was indisputably present in the Americas before European contact. The dispute is over whether or not syphilis was also present elsewhere in the world at that time. One of the two primary hypotheses proposes that syphilis was carried from the Americas to Europe by the returning crewmen from Christopher Columbus's voyage to the Americas. The other hypothesis says that syphilis existed in Europe previously, but went unrecognized until shortly after Columbus' return. These are referred to as the Columbian and pre-Columbian hypotheses, respectively.[17] The Columbian hypothesis is best supported by the available evidence.[40][41]"


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 5:09 am
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Thanks Rusel, that's a different area than I researched. I read up on the Incan Empire which said that the 'diseases' brought by the European contact were the Smallpox and Syphilis strains. It went on to say that while either disease could be survived, if a patient got both, one after the other, then death was more likely. I gave it the two generations (40 years) between contacts to give the diseases a chance to run their course though the population and for the population to start the recovery process. I agree with the skill loss, but in the case I was giving the Incans were learning, being taught, new skills by the Columbus survivors. As I said at the end, it is difficult to try and cover 5000 years of History in a short piece like I did above. The best I could do was cover the highlights.

I have taken a few liberties with the pre-Incan events and then the events from when Columbus arrives, but I do not think that Columbus actually ever go to South America. It was the Cortez/Pizaro contact that passed the diseases (whichever ones) onto the Incans.


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Rusel
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 7:09 am
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Yeah POD is always fun.
When I did my Masters in Epidemiology one of my papers was on Epidemics and Post Acute Recovery I came across the reports on Smallpox here in Oz.
It turns out that it was spread by the British army handing out infected blankets and often killed up to 90% of Aboriginal populations so decimating them. Many clans-language groups went extinct.
"In April 1789, a sudden, unusual, epidemic of smallpox was reported amongst the Port Jackson Aboriginal tribes who were actively resisting settlers from the First Fleet. This outbreak may have killed over 90 per cent of nearby native families and maybe three quarters or half of those between the Hawkesbury River and Port Hacking. It also killed an unknown number at Jervis Bay and west of the Blue Mountains."
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/pro ... re/5395050
I didn't come across any discussion of co-morbid Syphilitic infections.
So yes as an AU delineating the lines of infection and which areas were decimated and which had better survival rates will give you another dimension in choosing which culture groups you want to flourish.
Also the Amazonian Empire was larger than the Inca and only recently has hard evidence become evident about how extensive it was, eg-
http://yle.fi/uutiset/finnish_archaeolo ... il/6837612
Lots of fun ahead!
Thanks for this one!


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 8:44 am
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Thanks for the info Rusel,
I read about the blanket trick being used in North America by the British with the Indian tribes. I was researching to see if there was a tribe any where in the BC's that I could use to be the forerunners to the Incans. Had to make up my own in the end.

With the Amazonians, they may have been larger, but they did not have the technical skills of the Incas. I have sort of come at it from the south. Using the Campos tribes from what is now Argentina to move north and lay the seeds for the future 'Incan' Empire ruled by the Yupanqui's which are descendants of the Campos leaders. The Campos peoples are important as they occupy the same 'cold' type areas as the Anglo-Saxon tribes in the northern hemisphere. They introduce more fair skinned peoples to the mix and by the time that contact with the Europeans takes place the 'Incan' peoples are golden skinned and look more like the Europeans than the tribes to the North. This made them more acceptable to the British when the time came for the Anglo-Incan pact of 1536. The British did not refer to them as 'wogs' (from the 'golliwog' dolls) as they were light skinned. May not be very 'PC' in todays world, but racism was rampant during those times.


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 10:46 am
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First Incan steel hulled battleship that could be considered a 'modern' battleship.

1870 and the Incan Empires individual Kingdoms were struggling to be able to afford the new generation of steel hulled sailing ships, then the paddle steam ships, then screw ships. The escalating costs reminded all the Kingdoms why the Emperor had also had the position of Warlord and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. All of the Kingdoms would pay a portion of their annual income to the Emperor who used that money to provide the weapons and much needed resource and development of future weaponry for all of the Incan Empire. The kings came together with the Emperor and a resolution was made putting the defence of the Empire back in the hands of the Emperor. The future Empire Armed Forces would take a while to work out. Where the major land and sea bases would be. Where the foundries and other support infrastructure would be. The Emperor knew that these industries and bases had to be shared around the Empire so that all of the Kingdoms would have some part of the Armed services to generate income for the kingdom. The major item on the agenda that the Emperor had had on his mind was the digging of a canal between the Caribbean Sea and Pacific Ocean. This would have to take place on the narrow isthmus at the top of Chinchansuyu. This would also be the place to build the major Naval base for the north, where it would be able to supply ships to either west or east coast as required. Two major shipbuilding ports were to be constructed at Tiahuanaca in the Kingdom of Antisuyu in the north and Colorado in the Kingdom of Cuntinsuyu to the south.

The first major warship was laid down at Colorado in 1877. The Cuzco class battleship was based on European designs that had been made known to the Incan Empire.

Probably the most striking feature of the Incan design was the fitting of pyramid superstructure and guns. This feature was to appease the gods and allow the crews to pray to their god/gods.

The guns were the biggest the gun foundry could produce, 16" rifled muzzle loading weapons easily as good as anything being produced in Europe. The ship was launched in 1879 and after fitting out was completed for service in 1882. The new ship was to be the first to utilise the new Yapunqui Canal named for the Royal Bloodline. In 1885 a 6" bow chaser was fitted. Various other weapons were added and taken off as required.

[ img ]


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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 9:13 pm
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uhm.....
I am not going to comment on your storyline, that is not my cup of tea. however, I am somewhat puzzled by your ships
the BB 1530, apart from the OMG WHY ARE THERE PYRAMIDS, even if they make sense from a cultural perspective, I am not certain what you have done is possible.
the pyramids, being very high, will require an very large beam. the guns high up do not help, congratulations, you now created an gun pontoon which you seem to expect to be fast enough to ram and be light enough to sail?
the hull shape and rigging shape are not quite matching the period of either the inca's or the european ships, IIRC (nor does the ramming bow) and I am actually not certain columbus carried cannons, let alone that people were on board that had the knowledge to actually make ones as powerful as for this ship of the line.

the BB 1882, again the piramid has some troubling effects on how the ship would be build. being on that position, it needs to be armoured and as such is very heavy. the beam of the ship would be extreme, giving the guns an very small field of fire to the sides (as in a ship with the guns still in batteries would be preferable) while the machinery would not do at all, looking at those funnels.

I think you could do an more interesting take on that pyramid. sailing masts have often been described as pyramids of sails, no reason why you could not do something with that. tripod masts are also not unknown in history. canvas or net covered or frameworks, there are more options then huge, heavy, windcatching (not in a good way) pyramids on top of a warship.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 7th, 2015, 10:39 pm
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Thanks for your comments Ace.

I quite agree about the Pyramids. If the Pyramids are square then your beam is going to be the length of the side showing plus 6-8 feet. Machu Pichu = 152 long, Pyramid = 62+8=70 feet wide (something wrong there). Cuzco 430ft long Pyramid - 88+6=94 feet wide (better but not by much). If the length of the unseen side is 1/2 that of the facing side then that might bring the widths down to a more acceptable level. (MP= 152x34, C = 430x60). I was reading BB1987's piece about the Tomozuru incident and one of the things I had in mind was to have a capsizing incident blamed on the Pyramid which would remove the Pyramids as shown from the ships. Something as you mentioned in a lightweight Pyramid shape replacing it for the religious significance. I will have to give it some more thought. It might be possible to have the turrets with a pyramidic shape but with the width 1/2 that of the length or as appropriate for the number of guns much like the shape of the gun turrets on the Cuzco. That might suffice for the religious stuff.

What I wanted to end up with is something like the modern 'masts' on the stealth ships, but with an ancient twist.


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 8th, 2015, 10:59 am
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What the central battery battleship should look like without the Pyramid.

[ img ]

I have not added flags yet as I have not drawn it yet.


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 9th, 2015, 11:06 pm
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The new steel line-of-battleship Cuzco had issues that were not recognised till it was too late. During the 'wooden walls' age the Incan ships had featured a wooden Pyramid that was set there for religious purposes. Those pyramids were quite light, unlike the armoured Pyramid fitted to the Cuzco. During trials the pyramid did what it was supposed to, deflecting solid and rifled shot. The trials had been carried out in the Caribbean. The Cuzco passed through the Yupanqui Canal into the Pacific Ocean and headed for Lima (closest Royal port to the Emperors residence). A violent squall was encountered with large seas. The Cuzco took on an uncomfortable roll, on one roll of which the Cuzco did not recover, the ship capsizing, much to the horror of the two escorts. Many dignitaries had joined the ship at Chanchan to pass through the canal and onto Lima aboard the latest and greatest Incan achievement. The grand Admiral of the Fleet was one of those lost, with others of his staff that were some of the rising stars of the Incan Navy. A great loss.

A near sister, the IS (Imperial Ship) Tambo, was building at Tiahuanaca. This ships construction was halted while an investigation into the loss of Cuzco was conducted. The priests did not like the report which clearly pointed to the worst factor being the armoured pyramid. The Emperor (also head of the various religious orders) had to decree that in future the ships of the navy could no longer have the pyramid aboard as it may become an evil omen. The Emperor went on that to compensate, all future ships of the Incan Navy would have 'pyramid' shaped turrets (where applicable). The end of an era.

The Cuzco had been underpowered and very slow. 4000hp machinery had only got the ship to 11 knots flat out, and a steady 8 knots cruising. This was in comparison to the Italian Dandolo which made 15-16 knots on 7,500hp. The Tambo as part of the recasting of its design was to be fitted with 8,000hp machinery which would also give it a speed of 15-16 knots. (see previous post in this thread for drawing).


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