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Hood
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 10th, 2015, 9:11 am
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It's beyond my comfort zone, but its nice to see someone imagining how different cultures would have developed their style.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 10th, 2015, 6:14 pm
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Thanks for the comments gentlemen. As you can see from the changes to the ships, I am quite willing to listen to peoples comments, even to the stage of rewriting History to accommodate them.

Following on from Aces comments about the early sailing ship, I have halved the Pyramid and rebuilt that area. Being sail powered a bit of extra area to capture wind may actually help a bit with forward momentum as well as sideways drift.

[ img ]


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sebu
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 11th, 2015, 9:39 am
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You have an interesting AU here. I can only hope, you'll expanding this to modern age also ;) And oh, I slightly disagree with Ace about pyramids in naval vessels :)


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 11th, 2015, 6:35 pm
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Thanks for the comments guys.

Yes Sebu, I do want to try and carry forward the 'Pyramid' style in some way. I got the idea and possibility from the Japanese Pagodas on their major warships 1920-45. I am experimenting at the moment with pyramid mast / bridge superstructure and how I can get the look without the weight.


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 12th, 2015, 6:44 am
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1890 and the Tambo is taken in hand for a rebuild of the superstructure. The priests had been a flea in the ear of the Emperor about the loss of the pyramid on the Incan ships. The Emperor requested the Naval designers to come up with a plan to keep the pyramid. The original pyramid on the Cuzco, that caused all the problems, had been of the same 'step' construction as the many Pyramids built throughout the Empire. This method had required a lot of strength beams to carry the load, very heavy. A new design featuring flat planes for the sides with armour only on the lower sides and up to the conning tower level. The upper triangle was built of the same 25mm construction steel as the upper bridge level. Unlike the earlier pyramid which had required so much extra strengthening, the new pyramid was able to be honeycombed for offices and accommodation. These extra boxes constructed within the flat planes were the additional strength required for the pyramid.

[ img ]

The new arrangement added some topweight to the ship but not enough to destabilise the overall stability of the hull. The Tambo would not capsize the way the Cuzco had.


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waritem
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 12th, 2015, 7:20 am
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Why not use a latice structure for the pyramid?

It could be even covered with fabric for the office.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 12th, 2015, 8:07 am
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Thanks Waritem, I looked at that when Ace mentioned it.

The problem I have is that the Pyramid is a religious symbol. The priests and followers of the various religions that use the Pyramid as a symbol of the gods, believe that the gods reside in the pyramid. So I have to have a permanent structure that will be acceptable to the priests. That is what led to the capsizing of the Cuzco. The Pyramid for the Cuzco was to please the priests, once that proved to be a mistake the Emperor was able to curb the enthusiasm of the priests. But the priests would not give in and a compromise on the Pyramid had to be worked out. The Incan Empire Pyramid religions cover 80% of the population, the other 20% is of various Christian sects. So the priests have a large power base that has to be appeased. The followers of the pyramid religions will fight there ships all the harder if they can believe that the gods are with them.

It is not until the revolutions of the 1950's and 1960's that religion in the Empire is much reduced.


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Chris Roach
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 12th, 2015, 10:31 pm
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How shall I put this? While no doubt a fun AU it's not very plausible...

For a start the Incas rose to prominence relatively late. In the 12th century AD they were a minor city state centered on Cusco, and they only really started expanding beyond that in the 1430s. Nowhere near enough time to come to dominate all of South America before the Spanish arrived.

Then there's the ability of anyone to fully conquer and control all of South America... it may not be impossible but given the shear variety of landscape (including lots of jungle and some rather nasty mountains) it's not terribly plausible particularly when your only large domesticated animal won't carry more than 30kg. It's no coincidence that the extent of the Incan Empire in the real world corresponded rather closely to the normal habitat of Llamas and related species.
Add to that in the real world you had natives in Patagonia holding off the Spanish (and later Argentina and Chile) until the mid-19th century; and there's still good chunks of the Amazon with uncontacted tribes even today.

Even giving total dominance of South America as a freebie, having it hold together when you split it into sub-Kingdoms... not gonna happen. Sooner rather than later one or more of the Kings will decide they should be Emperor instead of the Emperor and chaos will soon follow...

Pyramids... While not unknown in South America, proper Pyramids (rather than earthworks or terraces) were not really an Inca thing... some earlier cultures from the coast of modern Peru built Pyramids, but it's more of a Central than South American thing. Hell! The temple to the Incas' chief god Inti in their capital Cusco didn't feature a pyramid. There is no reason to suppose any continuing Inca empire would get hung up on Pyramids to the extent of compromising the utility of shipping. Probably should google Incan religion before drawing any more of their ships ;-)

Of cause, if you did want to try a plausible take there's a few options:
1. Pizzaro initially attempted to keep the Incan Empire going as a puppet state. Between infighting between the conquistadors and the would-be puppet ruler, Manco Inca, escaping and trying to establish a new Incan kingdom on the upper fringes of the Amazon that fell to pieces. If Pizzaro was to have a falling out with Charles V, or if Manco Inca could play his cards right during the chaos (50,000 Inca warriors suddenly turning up on one side or other of the conflict between the Pizzaro brothers and Diego de Almagro?) then you could see the independence of the Incan Empire restored and a more modern state evolving from there. And with the wealth of silver in what is nowdays Bolivia...

2. A class of mixed Incan-Spanish descent remained major land-holders (though locked out of much political power) well into the 1700s, and continued to maintain major aspects of Inca culture, including use of Incan regalia, up until the rebellion of Tupac Amaru II was put down in the 1780s. Have a successful similar rebellion, say, a century before. Well, a restored "Incan" empire probably isn't as interesting as something with solid continuity to the real thing...


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 13th, 2015, 5:34 am
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Thanks for your comments Chris Roach.

You have your ideas on what is plausible and I have mine. If you start the seeds of the future Incan Empire back far enough, you can take the results wherever you like. I have kept the name 'Incan Empire' because it is a name most people will be familiar with. The trouble with using a real life name is everybody starts doing what you have done. Use real life events to say that what I have done is not plausible. However everybody forgets that none of those real life events will take place unless I want them to.

To make things work the way I want them to, only the names remain, the rest comes to life from my imagination. If you do not like what I have done, too bad. Real life is whatever I want to make it in each scenario I create, to provide a background reason to draw whatever ships I feel will populate the navy of the new land(s).

If you want to create one of your 'plausible' scenarios - do so, then draw the ships you think will populate the navy of your new Alternate Reality.


Edit:
My Incan scenario diverges from real life about 500BC, almost 2000 years before the real life Incans Empire begins. You can do a lot to a culture in 2000 years, even get them to build pyramids.


Last edited by Krakatoa on October 13th, 2015, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Chris Roach
Post subject: Re: The Incan Empire.Posted: October 13th, 2015, 4:52 pm
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Ah, sorry. I didn't intend for my comment to come off as hostile.

And of cause, we're here not on AH.com, so you're right plausibility isn't a big concern... drawing ships and having fun doing so is.


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