[Post Reply] [*]  Page 3 of 16  [ 154 posts ]  Go to page « 1 2 3 4 516 »
Author Message
citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 18th, 2016, 10:53 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 467
Joined: March 2nd, 2016, 8:30 pm
eswube wrote:
How does this relate to Polish never-weres? Because You know... I have them on my worklist and although finishing FD-scale Polish Wings is now my priority (so I can have it done once and for all :x ), I haven't dropped my SB plans. ;) :twisted:
Well, let's just say that your name will come up in the credits on this thread in no time at all ;) can't always be Golly after all.
Still, the Polish designs I have so far are completely fictional. If you have documented never-wheres from the 80s-90s, feel free to contact me so we can talk workload and derivatives. I have probably missed some interesting things from over there.

_________________
Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 Alternate Universe: Soviet and other Cold War designs 1990-2020.
My Worklist


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Skyder2598
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 18th, 2016, 2:59 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 513
Joined: April 29th, 2015, 7:57 pm
Location: Germany
Nice work ;-)

I also like your B-side style, realy nice. One small nitpick, GDR Pr. 1166.1 should be named "Frankfurt an der Oder" ;-)

_________________
best regards
Martin

~~Normerr~~FD stuff~~

Avatar: Normerr, summer 2016, Military police officer
giving fire support during a hostage rescue mission


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Hood
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 21st, 2016, 7:52 am
Offline
Posts: 6196
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:07 am
One question comes to mind, what's the rationale for the switch to the A-190M on the Pr.11664M? It seems a quite a large boost in firepower but also bulk and weight, at a time when, as you allude to in the text, that the missile armament came to dominate the design. I'm just curious really.

One small nitpick, you've forgotten to change the titles of the B-sides for the Pr.11664M/R and R.
I think the B-side idea is great with the Janes' style weapons and radar labelling and really makes the B-side more useful.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 21st, 2016, 12:31 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 467
Joined: March 2nd, 2016, 8:30 pm
Hood wrote:
One question comes to mind, what's the rationale for the switch to the A-190M on the Pr.11664M? It seems a quite a large boost in firepower but also bulk and weight, at a time when, as you allude to in the text, that the missile armament came to dominate the design. I'm just curious really.
The main rationale behind the switch to the A-190 is standardization. The A-190 is supposed to be the universal main gun from the 90s onward, so no new-built combat ships were equipped with the AK-176 (except as interim until enough A-190s were available).
The upgrade in firepower and range is mostly offset by a reduction in fire rate by nearly 40%. The weight increase is of less than 5 tons depending on the sources (10t unloaded for the AK-176, 15t for the A-190E in unspecified configuration, less than half the weight of the earlier AK-100).
I tend to look at it like this:
- The Pr.11664 hull is slightly lengthened and can be stiffened to take the heavier recoil
- Similar and smaller IRL classes have received the A-190 by design
- The AK-176 was already obsolete by 2000 and not fit for a new class
- Smaller-caliber weapons would be available, but the Pr.11664 was still meant to be a frigate and could do with a significant main gun for surface action
- The longer AA range fits with the improved SAM systems
Makes sense?

I must admit that I have considered switching to a 57mm A-220 variant for the Pr.11664R to save some weight, but figured out that the trade-off was not advantageous.
Hood wrote:
One small nitpick, you've forgotten to change the titles of the B-sides for the Pr.11664M/R and R.
Well spotted. I have corrected the title in the same version, since it is only a typo. Taken the opportunity to correct the name of the East German Gepard-1 as well (German grammar FTW).
Hood wrote:
I think the B-side idea is great with the Janes' style weapons and radar labelling and really makes the B-side more useful.
You are right in linking it to Jane's, that is where I got the idea in the first place. Glad you like it as well.
I still consider it optional, since it fits without changing the template, but it does indeed make the B-sides and drawings easier to read, and AU designs with home-made systems can sometimes do with some help in this regard.
It remains to be seen how well it will work on larger ships.

_________________
Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 Alternate Universe: Soviet and other Cold War designs 1990-2020.
My Worklist


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 21st, 2016, 8:18 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 924
Joined: December 26th, 2012, 9:36 am
Location: Germany
Hello Citizen Lambda!

Again, I have to join the Awesome Brigade. Not that I have much of a clue about modern Russian ships, but that highly impressive initial post makes me look forward to more. Looking at recent state election results in East Germany, the idea of an AU where the Russians keep the GDR for themselves starts to have some appeal on me... :(

Keep it up!!!

Greetings
GD


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 21st, 2016, 9:55 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 467
Joined: March 2nd, 2016, 8:30 pm
Hi GD, and thanks for the kind words.
Not to diminish the importance of everyone else's feedback, but seeing the drawings you've posted lately it means a lot to get encouragement like that. Also, yes, I've just sen the latest results in MV, I know how you feel... Before we spiral into political O/T, let me just contend that the Russians have the potential to make way more of a mess of East German politics in my timeline than the way it is in IRL ;)

Re. further posts, I am finishing up a few other classes but probably won't be able to post much until next week.

Side-OT-note: taken the occasion to sneakily correct the air-search radar on the air-defense Pr.11664M Voron, which was criminally out of scale for some reason.

_________________
Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 Alternate Universe: Soviet and other Cold War designs 1990-2020.
My Worklist


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
erik_t
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 22nd, 2016, 3:57 am
Offline
Posts: 2738
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 11:38 pm
Location: Midwest US
For what it's worth, I think standardizing frigates on a 100mm gun seems totally reasonable.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Hood
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 22nd, 2016, 7:55 am
Offline
Posts: 6196
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:07 am
I'm happy with that, and it makes sense. I was just curious if there was scope for an AU improved AK-176 76mm mount or successor.

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 22nd, 2016, 8:46 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 467
Joined: March 2nd, 2016, 8:30 pm
It might be exceedingly unrealistic, but I still have a soft spot for the 57mm A-220 and its family. The drive to standardize on the 100mm A-190, which was already planned in the 1980s, would soon enough leave smaller units without an up-to-date main gun. A reworked 57mm, with its high velocity and ROF, might be a better choice than the 76mm to counter FACs and low-altitude air threats, and is all the more able to evolve into a bona fide large-caliber CIWS à la Dardo/Strales, which can then add to the close-range defense package of major units. As of 2016, that would lead to the Soviet Navy standardizing on three main calibers: 57mm, 100mm and 152mm.

_________________
Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 Alternate Universe: Soviet and other Cold War designs 1990-2020.
My Worklist


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
citizen lambda
Post subject: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AU - Pr.1244.1 GromPosted: September 28th, 2016, 6:30 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 467
Joined: March 2nd, 2016, 8:30 pm
Pr.1244.10

The Pr.1244.1 program grew out of a 1980s in-house development for a small missile ship by the Almaz design office. The long-range anti-ship missiles of the new generation that were to be the ship's main weapon required over-the-horizon targeting, most reliably obtained by an on-board helicopter. Integrating a helicopter deck and hangar turned the 1000-ton small ship into a 2000-ton light frigate. Such a ship would become a bona fide target for enemy submarines, and the requirement grew to include self-defense ASW weapons and sensors. A multi-role helicopter was already planned to be carried, and the hull sonars and ASW vectors were progressing by leaps and bounds in the late 1980s, so a massive under-bow active sonar was integrated, while on-board weaponry turned towards the RPK-9 Medvedka light torpedo-carrying missile system then in development. It out-ranged and out-paced all torpedo- and rocket-based systems then in service, and promised to make good use of the on-board and helicopter sensors.
The design, now clearly in frigate territory, was clearly lacking in air defense. Of the current systems, the Uragan developed for the Pr.956 destroyer was too heavy and cumbersome, and lacked the reaction time and flexibility to counter saturation attacks, while the Kinzhal mounted on the Pr.1155 and Pr.1154 was considered too expensive and lacking in range to counter high-velocity threats. A new AAW system clearly had to be developed to keep up with the overall high technology content of the design. At that stage, the Pr.1244, now projected to displace 3500 tons, was unceremoniously re-packaged as a multi-role first-rank frigate, and pushed to the Soviet Navy procurement committee as a replacement for the various 1960s-vintage hulls tasked with blue-water air defense and sub-hunting.
While most of the projected systems were mature or nearing readiness, the linchpin of the program was the new and ambitious air-defense system. Envious of the US Aegis integrated air-defense system and fearful of ongoing high-velocity anti-ship weapons in development in NATO countries, Soviet brass pushed for a full-fledged integrated air-defense system (IADS), centered around a smart multi-function AESA radar array (leaping one generation ahead of projected NATO systems) and a compact single-stage SAM marrying autonomous active radar guidance and a 75km baseline range. In order to hasten entry in service, construction of the ships was started before all systems had been tested.
The Oniks and Medvedka systems had already been trialed on different platforms and their integration posed no major problems. On the other hand, neither the Redut missile nor the associated radar were available to be mounted on the first of class as it was launched in 1996. A forward-thinking attempt at concurrent engineering soon ground to a halt, with one ship completed and three blocked during fitting out before the situation was solved.
After much waffling, the class lead was completed and rushed into service in late 1998 without any the planned air-defense systems. A single AK-630M2 CIWS was fitted as originally planned, leaving the ship bristling with offensive weapons but woefully undefended. Luckily, the single ship of vanilla Pr.1244.1 would not spend a long time so defenseless.
No satisfying alternative design was available at the time, and the Soviet Navy could ill afford to wait for a new frigate program. Completing the following ships in the class would require re-thinking the AAW systems from the ground up.
It would take nearly 10 more years to bring the planned Pr.1244.1 configuration to fruition.

[ img ]

[ img ]


Pr.1244.1R

The second and third ships of Pr.1244.1 were still being completed when the lead unit was commissioned without any air defense system. At that stage, an interim solution had been selected: the Soviet Air Defense Forces (PVO) had commissioned a land-based SAM system based around a straightforward adaptation of the third-generation R-77 air-to-air missile. There was little doubt that this move was inspired by the NATO ARMSAM/NASAMS-III experiments, but the mission was as different as the client force. Instead of protecting mobile land forces, what would become the S-350P Nadim (the -P suffix being added once Navy interest was made official) was to provide high-density medium-range cover to the large long-range SAM batteries protecting the Soviet airspace, and to the ubiquitous radar systems supporting them.
Since a folding-wing R-77 version was already under development for internal carriage on the 5th-generation stealth fighters, modification for cold-launch canisters was straightforward. The same series of missiles was put into production for both the VMF and the PVO, with different guidance variants to help overcome low-observable targets and swarming attacks. The extended flight envelope, high maneuverability and smart seekers of the 5V77K missile family provided a welcome replacement to the defunct Redut system, albeit at no small cost. As its air-to-air forebear, the new missile used chiefly active radar guidance, and was thus exponentially more expensive than the earlier command-guided missiles used by both the PVO and the VMF. For once in Soviet design history, the cost of the projectile had surpassed the cost of the platform.
While this felt like a good investment to some in the naval staff - after all, no one required that all launch canisters be filled, and the ships would be that much cheaper - others considered it a risky departure from the timeless Soviet philosophy of always preparing to fight a long war of attrition. Keeping weapons dumb and cheap had so far allowed to plan for surge production in case of escalation.
The new air-defense missile system was nevertheless adopted in 2000 as the 4K77D system, aka S-350F Redut-2. Though overshadowed in the public eye by more glamorous systems like the Fort and the Krepost, its versatility and low support requirements made it an ideal candidate for extending the size of the self-protection bubble of major units, where it complemented handily the shorter-ranged Kinzhal/Kolchan family. The Redut-2 with its original non-phased-array data-links would be fitted to a few lighter combatant classes, but would never really find its place in this role.
Vertical-launch missile silos were hastily fitted into the slots reserved for the original Redut in the fore-deck. The original CIWS fit of a single AK-630M2 was no less inadequate when backed up by a SAM battery, and was deleted and covered by further VLS packs for the Redut-2, while the Redut emplacements around the hangar were replaced by a pair of combined-weapons Palma-S CIWS with much better coverage.
Since no tracking phased-array was available to support the new missile system, a crash program yielded a compact data-link antenna to lead the missiles to a small enough engagement box around the targets detected by the on-board radars. In this regard, the interim radar fit still let to be desired, as the Podberyozovik C-band plate lacked the scan rate and accuracy, and the Pozitiv the power, to provide target data out to the full range of the missiles.

[ img ]

[ img ]


Pr.1244.1M

The ambitious Redut-R multi-function phased-array radar concept was torn apart and drastically simplified. In an attempt to work around the complexities of the AESA array, work concentrated on a high frequency scan-only passive array that could enter service in the short term. While not as flexible as an active array, this system allowed accurate medium-range scanning and tracking of targets with a virtually unlimited refresh rate. The added weight was a trade-off for a much better ability to track fast-moving and low-altitude targets.
The 3Ts90 Kometa-1 X-band phased-array radar system was also integrated on the Pr.1102 destroyer, but would soon be replaced by more capable versions.
The installation of this array atop the deck-house of the Pr.1244 allowed the removal of the Pozitiv target-acquisition radar atop the hangar. Still, this early PESA array lacked the smarts to guide even radar-active SAMs all by itself, and the data-link antennas developed for Pr.1244.1R were retained. This new configuration gave the last four ships of Pr.1244.1 a better chance of exploiting the full range of the S-350F missiles. The missile data-link antennas of Pr.1244.1R were retained, since the integration of their function in the radar array was still several years away.
Space for a fixed radar array was allocated at the bottom of the mainmast since the beginning of Pr.1244.1, so the integration of the relatively compact Kometa-1 array was a straightforward affair. Outside of the radar fit, the ships of Pr.1244.1M were mostly identical to the Pr.1124.1R. Both factors made the two production variants of Pr.1244.1 visually very similar. Still, priority for new-build ships and the low availability of the radar arrays meant that the earlier Pr.1244.1R ships would never be back-fitted with the Kometa arrays. Their already respectable AAW capabilities and the rapid entry in service of more advanced designs in the following years meant that the original Pr.1124.1R could soldier on as ASW platform and missile trucks.

[ img ]

[ img ]


Pr.1244.2

The definitive version of the series would require another major step in Soviet fixed phased-array radar systems. Completion of the Kometa-1 scan-only cleared the way for more complex and smarter arrays, starting with its 3Ts91 Kometa-2 descendant. This new version combined the scanning ability already established with a near-instantaneous track creation able to generate guidance solutions against fast and maneuvering targets, while integrated secondary arrays handled IFF interrogation and long-range 2D detection of low-observable contacts in L-band. This assembly would represent the bulk of built-in PESA arrays in Soviet surface combatants well into the 2010s.
The new array was noticeably taller than the simpler Kometa-1, and required a complete re-design of the upper deck-house and mainmast. In order to save weight and reduce radar signature, the latticed mast was at last replaced with a massive slanted mast made of carbon composite.
All in all, a lot of the original systems were updated during the transition between variants, making the Pr.1244.2 almost unrelated to its elder cousins. Externally visible were: new and lighter radars for 3D air search and surface target indication, an expanded visual/IR detection and countermeasures suite, and a new EW suite. Nearly nothing of the original weapons suite was retained, with the Oniks launchers at last replaced with the UKSK universal VLS, and the original RPK-9 system re-wired to the URK-11K standard. Both missile arrays gave the ships a respectable 40 tubes for a mix of land-attack, anti-ship and ASW missiles, although the higher missile density of the UKSK made loading all cells with 3-ton Oniks or 3M14 LACMs a perilous proposition in choppy seas.
The integration of all these new systems made the Pr.1244.2 the standard production variant of the series, with 13 hulls turned out in the Yantar and Zaliv shipyards between 2006 and 2011.
Ships would later be upgraded with newer sub-systems, though the overall outline of the ships would mostly stay true to their mid-2000s iteration.

[ img ]

[ img ]

_________________
Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 Alternate Universe: Soviet and other Cold War designs 1990-2020.
My Worklist


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 3 of 16  [ 154 posts ]  Return to “Alternate Universe Designs” | Go to page « 1 2 3 4 516 »

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sp3ctra_star and 6 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]