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eswube
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 28th, 2016, 9:56 pm
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Excellent addition!

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 29th, 2016, 7:54 am
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An excellent Grom series.

Is the S-350P Nadim derivative of the R-77 a totally fictional missile or does it have a basis as a real project?
I'm not completely up on modern radar systems but the development line looks plausible.

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 29th, 2016, 5:23 pm
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Great drawings!

As I have myself toying around with Noviks for AU purpose quite some time now, it was interesting to see which path you took. Any particular reason in your timeline that you didn't choose the go with the Redut? Also how many missiles were your initial variant supposed to carry if it had ever recieved the missiles?

Can't wait to see further updates on this one!

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citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: September 29th, 2016, 8:30 pm
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Thanks everyone!
Hood wrote:
Is the S-350P Nadim derivative of the R-77 a totally fictional missile or does it have a basis as a real project?
I'm not completely up on modern radar systems but the development line looks plausible.
A version had been proposed for export in the late 1990s as RVV-ZRK, though with a different propulsion system based on a thicker rear body. Here's a later proposal for a land-based version using the original missile, presented in 2005.
I never heard about development of a naval version IRL, but as I explained, my AU version is adapted from a land-based PVO system.
Gollevainen wrote:
As I have myself toying around with Noviks for AU purpose quite some time now, it was interesting to see which path you took. Any particular reason in your timeline that you didn't choose the go with the Redut? Also how many missiles were your initial variant supposed to carry if it had ever recieved the missiles?
Why not the IRL Redut? In no particular order:
- the IOC required for the Grom is much earlier than what was achieved IRL for the 9M96 family
- the initial PVO requirement for a medium-range missile that gave birth to my R-77-based S-350P must be understood as a replacement of the legacy S-125, less than of the early S-300P (first-generation 5V55) for the Vityaz
- the R-77 was immediately available as early as 1992 and IRL RVV-ZRK studies suggest that the conversion was feasible
- design work would already be ongoing on a folding-fin R-77 for internal carriage on the 5th-gen fighters
- both also suggest that the ZRK conversion was straightforward enough for a crash program like the Redut stop-gap
- there wouldn't have been enough work (both conceptual and technical) on true universal VLS to warrant standardizing a new mid-90s SAM on the Fort launcher
- also, the Fort still used the legacy rotary launcher by that point
- I'm not enough in the clear on the IRL interactions between the South Korean KM-SAM and the development of the 9M96 to port it as-is to a timeline where such interaction is nigh impossible
- preference would have been given to a radar-active missile from the get-go, including in the original Redut system (more flexible, works better on stealth platforms, better against saturation attacks...) and a radar-active 9M96 would have taken several extra years to develop
- there would have been contemporary influence of the AMRSAM and VL-MICA to goad the Soviet brass into a similar development (both the radar-active guidance and the surface launch of an unmodified MR-SAM)

Does that make sense? Or do you have sources on the IRL Redut development starting much earlier than I assume?

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citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AU - Pr.621/622Posted: October 15th, 2016, 3:58 pm
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Construction of the Project 620 corvette Kaszub had been plagues by delays, quality problems and unavailable materials. Even once completed to a broadly combat-worthy spec in 1991, it did not bring much to the Polish navy except from a green-water training platform.
The quality of the design was nevertheless recognized, and the Polish Navy pushed for further construction of an enhanced design. The design was also pitched to the Warsaw Pact Military-Technical Committee as a candidate for a new coastal defense corvette. Negotiations followed, and in late 1992 a joint design committee was set up between Poland and the Soviet Union. The multi-role corvette originally planned could not be developed due to volume and technology constraints, and two different variants were defined under Project 621.

Pr.621R
The first derivative versions retained the hull and most of the superstructure of the Kaszub. The large area behind the mainmast, originally set aside for an Osa SAM system, saw the installation of two Uran AShM quad launchers, giving the corvette a significant anti-ship punch. In addition, the anti-air weapons suite was brought up to late 90s standard with the installation of two gun-only Palma CIWS and a single Sosna-F short-range SAM launcher aft. The sensor suite was upgraded accordingly, with a Pozitiv-series air/surface target acquisition radar and a Garpun/Bal surface search/acquisition complex for the Uran missiles. The complete ASW system was retained, making this version effectively multirole, though lacking in detection range. Despite the additions, the new version remained sea-worthy enough for the Baltic Sea, and the first ship was accepted into service by the Polish Navy in 1994. Three ships were delivered to Poland, where they served alongside the capital units and often operated together with missile boats in composite squadrons. Five ships were ordered by the Soviet Navy to complement their Baltic Fleet coastal forces, though external observers suspected that the contract was mostly meant as financial support to the Polish shipbuilding industry. Whatever the case, the Soviet boats served a long if uneventful career in the Baltic Fleet, being deployed in several coastal defense units out of Kaliningrad and rotating out to Polish and East German bases. The required weapon and sensor systems were cleared for license production in Poland, quickly helping in the build-up of the Polish military shipbuilding capability.

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Pr.621S
Still based on the Kaszub structure, Pr.621R did away with all equipment on the aft deck to make space for a helicopter landing pad. The helicopter of choice for the Polish Navy was the W-3 Sokol, the size of which prevented the installation of a hangar on the Pr.620 hull. The Kamov Ka-28 was rejected on grounds of operating costs, and a dedicated ASW variant called W-3PL developed with Soviet assistance. Equipped with an on-board helicopter and the original ASW suite, this variant of the class had an exclusively ASW mission set, lacking surface attack capabilities and with a more limited air defense than its multirole cousin. Entry in service of the class was delayed until the new helicopter was tested and delivered to units. The Polish Naval Air
Despite its limited offensive capabilites and detection range, this sub-class was considered quite successful, and saw regular service in the Baltics under both Polish and East German colors. Several allied and unaligned countries with brown-to-green-water navies also invested in this variant to ease their transition to the more complex combined operations required by modern ASW warfare. The limited displacement, rugged platform and easy-access handling system made it an ideal candidate for budding navies, while the helicopter platform and reduced weaponry granted it more flexibility, including in peacetime public service missions, than most of its Warsaw Pact counterparts. The Soviet Navy declined a purchase of this version, considering its helicopter capabilities insufficient in comparison to larger frigates, and not advantageous in the very dense sea- and air-borne structure of Soviet coastal defense. They would nonetheless have a hand in the development of follow-on variants.

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Pr.622 Chaika
Still unable to decide on a new-generation small anti-submarine ship (MPK) design to replace the uncountable but obsolete 1000-ton ships of the Pr.35, .50 and .159 classes, the Soviet navy turned to the Polish shipyards for proposals in the late 1990s. The Pr.620 hull was well-considered for its ruggedness and stability, and the projected systems then in development were regarded as enabling a full frigate-like ASW suite on a 1500-ton platform. Key to this, besides steadily miniaturizing LOS and satellite data-exchange links, were the further developments of the RPK-9 Medvedka ASW missile system, as well as the dedicated ASW variant of the lightweight Ka-226 helicopter.
Once again, a joint design team was established by engineers from Gdansk and Zelenodolsk, which came up with a significantly upgraded variant of the legacy Pr.620, designated Pr.622 once in service. While the general structure and most of the foredeck were retained, the central superstructure was brought together around a small hangar for the Ka-226P, located as close as possible to the center of gravity of the ship. Sea-keeping was enhanced by lengthening the hull slightly, though active stabilizers were never fitted.
With the removal of the torpedo tubes, missiles and stern AA weapons, most of the stern deck was dedicated to a full-size landing pad. Tests would allow landing and re-supply of the 10-ton Ka-27, although it would never fit the hangar. The offensive weaponry was trimmed down to a pair of retractable quad launchers for the RPK-9 Medvedka ASW rocket, which would later evolve based on the URK-11K multi-role weapons suite. Self-protection was afforded by two Palma CIWS and one of the first operational fits of the A-222M twin 57mm autocannon. The sensor suite was austere but commendable for a ship of that size, featuring both hull and towed medium-frequency sonars and a lightweight 3D surveillance radar. Later ships would received improved systems along the way, and before 2010, production switched to a slightly revised Pr.622.2 version integrating brand-new systems developed for the Project 2133 and 2168 frigates. By 2020, 25 ships of both variants would have entered service in the Soviet Navy. The Polish forces never showed interest in the design, having renewed their large surface combatants in the 2000s.

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adenandy
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: October 16th, 2016, 2:17 am
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EXCELLENT work CL, Excellent :!:

Jolly Well Done old sausage :D

I really CAN'T wait to see MORE :P


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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: October 16th, 2016, 7:52 am
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Another great set, although I have bit reservations wheter your first version of the Kazub would have handeled top-weight issues

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: October 16th, 2016, 9:13 am
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Another great set of corvettes, I really like the idea of an ASW Ka-226 too.

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: October 18th, 2016, 9:01 pm
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Great work. I really like these Pr.621's! :D

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citizen lambda
Post subject: Re: Soviet Century/Cold War 2020 AUPosted: October 19th, 2016, 8:51 pm
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Thanks everyone for the feedback!
Gollevainen wrote:
Another great set, although I have bit reservations wheter your first version of the Kazub would have handeled top-weight issues
I know that the Uran launchers sit a bit high on the superstructure, but they are also fairly close to the center of the ship. Consider as well that with an Uran at 620kg, a loaded KT-184 (with unarmored tubes) can't weigh much more than 3 tons, right? (I haven't found a definitive value for the complete launcher)
In comparison, the take-off weight of a W-3 is given at 6,4t - and the ASW version could conceivably be slightly heavier if suitable engines are found - so that would be the weight the Pr.621S variant would carry over deck level would be similar to that of the whole missile setup. Though not 100% of the time, of course.
For comparison purposes, do you happen to know the weight of the complete Osa-M package, with launcher, loader and radar? Since this is what was supposed to be added on the Pr.620 on top of its IRL configuration, that would pose a feasible upper limit, even though part of the material (missile loader chiefly) would sit lower than the Urans.

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