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Krakatoa
Post subject: Argentina and the Malvinas 1939-40Posted: January 25th, 2017, 10:47 am
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I have been reviewing a lot of my early drawings, which look like shit compared to later efforts. So I have been re-drawing some of the early concepts. Funnily enough since Argentina is the first Navy in my Solarium AU (my offsite AU) those are the drawings I started on. Argentina in this AU is solely fixed on taking and holding Las Malvinas from the hated British. The mass extinction of the High Seas Fleet does not take place and those ships not retained by Germany as a buffer against Communist Russia, are sold through the Allied War Reparations Commission. Argentina is a good customer. The later Argentine ships are home built with German technical assistance. Germanys way of getting around some of the Versailles restrictions. I also transplant a lot of disaffected German Naval staff/workers who were unemployed - starving in the early 1920's. These staff help build all of the Argentine infrastructure to build ships.

Carriers:

The first Argentinian carrier is a conversion from a liner. The ex-German Columbus bought from the AWRC. Converted in Germany 1921-27.

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The ships conversion was completed in 1928, then the ship was rebuilt in 1938-39, once the first of the 9 de Julio class is completed.

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The second class was a pair of carriers built around a generic BB/CV hull type. 9 of the hulls were to be built, 5 as BB's 4 as CV's. Eventually only 2 CV's were completed.

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Battleships/Battlecruisers/Armoured Ships:

Oldest large units in the fleet, the two ex-Helgoland class ships supplied two major needs for the fleet. Twin turrets removed and recycled. Harbour support ships to take and hold Port Stanley.

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The next two classes were the battle fleet ships to escort the original strike convoy and then the follow up supply convoys. High speed was not required but good AA capability was.

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The last of the ex-German sourced battleships were the two ex-Kaiser class. Taken in hand at Bahia Blanca the two ships were converted to battle-raiders. When compared to the Deutschland type, these two ships took the concept through to another level.

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The next three classes were built during the 1920's-1930's. The first was a pair of coast defence battleships sourced from the US. The next pair were also sourced from the US as Argentina was still gearing up to build capital ships. Cruisers were the largest ships built through to 1934. It was the production of thick armoured steel plate that was the problem. Until Argentina could produce their own, cruisers were it. Some of these drawings have appeared before but these are new versions drawn for Argentina,

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The last two drawings are the first home produced large warships. While only armed with 8x12" these ships are as much of a match for the other South American dreadnoughts.

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There were not many of the German battlecruisers left and Argentina bought the Von der Tann and Derfflinger. The Von der Tann was used as a trials and training ship and had the privilege of carrying and landing the Assault Marine Company that took and held Port Stanley.

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Heavy Cruisers:

The eight Argentine heavy cruisers were the major warships being built through the 1930's.

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The second class was built with a 10 gun broadside but in 5 turrets in the Japanese manner rather than the mixed turret US manner. They proved very cramped in service. Too much crammed in.

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Lastly is a flush deck cruiser with three triple turrets. Very well balanced.

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Light and Minelaying cruisers, destroyers and minor vessels to come at a later date.


Last edited by Krakatoa on March 17th, 2017, 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JSB
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 12:20 pm
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Lots of nice looking ships (Derfflinger and last especially) but do have questions about how well they did against the G3s that came south late in this no treaty world? :-P


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garviloken46
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 1:23 pm
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Yeah...in this world Washington 1922 doesn't take place. In which case the RN sends a few battle squadrons south and might not try and retake Stanley so much as flatten Buenos Aires until you capitulate. Also your fluff fails to explain how Argentina goes from not being able to operate the 2 battleships they had full time (the Rivadavia class spent most of their careers as training ships) to being able to afford what is approaching a first tier navy.


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Tobius
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 2:19 pm
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Never mind the battleships. How about the carriers? Only three nations knew how, and two of them (US and Great Britain) were still learning the basics when the Japanese took them to school. I actually doubt the Germans could teach Argentina anything about naval aviation.


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garviloken46
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 4:49 pm
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I didn't even think of that to be honest. It also seems to be a very Plan Z esque fleet in that there's a lot of big ships but not as many useful ones. Great drawings though


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 7:18 pm
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How closely did anyone read the fluff?

In 1919-21 the German Navy via the Versailles Treaty had to reduce its complement not only of ships but also of men. That's all types of staff from the top down. What happened to all those unemployed people? If Argentina offered to transport you (and your family) to be employed and help set up the Argentine navy from a two ship wannabe to an integrated battlefleet, would you accept the offer rather than starve or die from the Spanish Flu? How its paid for in an AU is always easy. Some good commodity(s) is available to fill the coffers to obtain the ships.

Yes JSB the opponent for Argentina will be the Commonwealth, but if the Commonwealth is at war with Germany when Argentina takes over the Las Malvinas/Falkands (say November 1939), where do these mythical Commonwealth battlefleets come from? The Commonwealth I use is my Fisherless version. The end result is some close battles with the Commonwealth prevailing. But it is actually Brazil that makes the difference by its land forces entering Argentina and forcing a surrender.

The Washington treaty does take place. The only ships that Argentina builds that abrogate the Treaty are their first two cruisers. Not enough to break the treaty. By the time the second pair of cruisers is built and join the fleet in 1935 the Japanese have already said they are withdrawing and the Treaties are dead anyway. The only class of ship that Argentina could have built that would have worried the Major powers was 45,000+ ton battleships, like the Japanese did. They would have had to build monster battleships 1930-35 to break the Treaty.

Carriers? When the first carrier is converted 1921-27, nobody knew much about carriers (including the Japanese), so whichever nation I choose to provide the ship with a conversion is going to learn about carriers. I could have had the Columbus towed/steamed across to the US who would probably have done the job (Argentina is a BB customer). For all anybody knew in the early 20's they were creating white elephants. Why did I want Germany in particular to have some early knowledge of carriers? So that Germany could build better carriers than what they did design in the late 30's.

Now then guys and Tobius. Rather than making uninformed comments, how about you supposedly adult people ask some intelligent questions. I know that most of you prefer to tear things down rather than help people so why don't you try again with your comments/questions?


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RegiaMarina1939
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 7:55 pm
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While this is an interesting concept, I'm not really seeing it... This is really a big collection of drawings rather than an actual AU. Just because there is a few historical notes doesn't give me enough reasons to see this as a dedicated work. The whole point of AU is to re-write history, but all I see here is a collection of ships. While they are nice, I see your name isn't in the credits... It seems like this just needs a better historical background. Your other AU nations were much more detailed!

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RegiaMarina1939

Current Worklist:
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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 8:18 pm
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If you wish to see the full AU go to http://www.alternateuniversewarships.com.

The nick Krakatoa is only in Shipbucket anywhere else I am Nigevids.


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RegiaMarina1939
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 8:36 pm
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Krakatoa wrote:
If you wish to see the full AU go to http://www.alternateuniversewarships.com.

The nick Krakatoa is only in Shipbucket anywhere else I am Nigevids.
Ohhh ok that makes more sense now.

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RegiaMarina1939

Current Worklist:
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-Nicaragua AU
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JSB
Post subject: Re: Argentina and the MalvinasPosted: January 25th, 2017, 9:11 pm
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Krakatoa wrote:
How closely did anyone read the fluff? READ??? what are you taking us for... :lol:

Yes JSB the opponent for Argentina will be the Commonwealth, ..... I was just suggesting that if Argentina gets to buy so many ships so will Brazil and Chile and that's a very different world for the treaties to be in, USN/RN would demand more new to over match them.

If ARA has 3 CVs (and tons of BBs +CDBBs how many of each class ?) its in the big time league as a treaty power...


Now then guys and Tobius. Rather than making uninformed comments, how about you supposedly adult people ask some intelligent questions. I know that most of you prefer to tear things down rather than help people so why don't you try again with your comments/questions? Apologies I think I started a rather negative response flow for the rest of the thread :cry:


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