Moderator: Community Manager
[Post Reply] [*]  Page 2 of 12  [ 118 posts ]  Go to page « 1 2 3 4 512 »
Author Message
emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 11:40 am
Offline
Posts: 3547
Joined: November 17th, 2010, 8:03 am
Location: Corinth, MS USA
Contact: Website, Skype, YouTube
A 9x15-in. gunned Salmon & Gluckstein? Nice! Can't wait to see Bismarck and Tirpitz and their successors!

_________________
[ img ]
MS State Guard - 08 March 2014 - present

The Official IJN Ships & Planes List


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 11:59 am
Offline
Posts: 246
Joined: April 1st, 2018, 9:07 pm
emperor_andreas wrote: *
A 9x15-in. gunned Salmon & Gluckstein? Nice! Can't wait to see Bismarck and Tirpitz and their successors!
Would you please be so kind and explain what you mean by Salmon & Gluckstein? Regarding the two bigger capital ships, they will have the same main armament but in four turrets, Anton, Berta, Caesar and Dora. If they will be completed...


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 3:55 pm
Offline
Posts: 246
Joined: April 1st, 2018, 9:07 pm
Admiral Graf Spee was the first heavy cruiser developped for the DKM even before Hitler gained control over Germany. First talks about such a heavy ship began in the late 20s and, after much debate on political base, in 1932 the ship was finally laid down for construction. It had amongst other new designs a new concept of powertrain, consisting of four newly developed nine cylinder double acting two-stroke Diesel engines, each delivering 8.200 shp and coupled by pairs to two shafts driving massive four bladed screws.

The ship was nominally under the 10,000 long tons limitation on warship size of the heavy cruiser class imposed by the Treaty of Versailles, though with a full load displacement of 16,020 long tons (16,280 t), she significantly exceeded it. Armed with six 28 cm guns in two triple gun turrets, Admiral Graf Spee and her sisters (Deutschland and Graf Scheer) were designed to outgun any cruiser fast enough to catch them. Their top speed of very close to 30 knots left only the few battlecruisers in the Anglo-French navies fast enough and powerful enough to sink them. This project was for Germany clearly an act of propaganda and revenge due to the humiliating terms imposed on it at the armistice ending WWI.

[ img ]

The ship conducted five non-intervention patrols during the Spanish Civil War in 1936–1938, and participated in the Coronation Review of King George VI in May 1937. After the Nazi regime was overthrown and the generals took over, Admiral Graf Spee voyaged frequently through the Atlantic ocean, clearly to be seen. This was one factor leading to the AGNA GB signed with Germany, as described elsewhere. This is also the reason why the ship took no action during the Spanish Civil War, although "unofficially" a German heavy airforce group took part on the side of general Franco. But these "volonteers" having formed the so-called "Legion Condor", not an official German delegation. And, behind the curtains, many European conservative governments were more than thankful to Germany for this aid to the Spanish forces fighting hard the left-wing regime, openly supported by the Soviet Union.

Graf Spee gave many crew members of the DKM high sea training, including real fire against old merchant ships Germany got from Poland, Finland, Sweden, Spain and Italy, which were bound to be scrapped. When the battleship Scharnhorst was ready, it was not difficult to find the necessary complement with enough experience on board and at high seas. Graf Spee was incorporated into the high seas fleet led by Scharnhorst as backing heavy cruiser and continued to train new marine personnel. She had undergone in 1938 an extensive modernization program, during which bow and stern were altered and "FuMO" euipment was installed to track "ennemy" ships and to serve as fire directors. In the summer of 1939 these works were completed and Graf Spee and Scharnhorst made several sea exercises with other, smaller, DKM ships acting as "enemy".

Due to "certain circumstances" never explained to the civil population which gathered to see those marvelous new ships, Scharnhorst and Graf Spee, joined by Gneisenau which was in the meantime also ready, made in mid-September 1939 a visit to Finland, showing up at Helsinki as well as in Vipuuri (Viborg), where they stayed for a complete week... On the trip back to Germany the three ships made again diplomatic visits, this time to the main ports of the three Baltic States...

Back at Kiel, the commanding officers spent days writing down all the details of navigational and military importance they had witnessed.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 7:49 pm
Offline
Posts: 3547
Joined: November 17th, 2010, 8:03 am
Location: Corinth, MS USA
Contact: Website, Skype, YouTube
Cargil48 wrote: *
emperor_andreas wrote: *
A 9x15-in. gunned Salmon & Gluckstein? Nice! Can't wait to see Bismarck and Tirpitz and their successors!
Would you please be so kind and explain what you mean by Salmon & Gluckstein? Regarding the two bigger capital ships, they will have the same main armament but in four turrets, Anton, Berta, Caesar and Dora. If they will be completed...
The Royal Navy referred to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as 'Salmon' and 'Gluckstein'. :D

_________________
[ img ]
MS State Guard - 08 March 2014 - present

The Official IJN Ships & Planes List


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 9:13 pm
Offline
Posts: 246
Joined: April 1st, 2018, 9:07 pm
emperor_andreas wrote: *
Cargil48 wrote: *
emperor_andreas wrote: *
A 9x15-in. gunned Salmon & Gluckstein? Nice! Can't wait to see Bismarck and Tirpitz and their successors!
Would you please be so kind and explain what you mean by Salmon & Gluckstein? Regarding the two bigger capital ships, they will have the same main armament but in four turrets, Anton, Berta, Caesar and Dora. If they will be completed...
The Royal Navy referred to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as 'Salmon' and 'Gluckstein'. :D
Wow... That one I didn't know... :D


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 10:28 pm
Offline
Posts: 246
Joined: April 1st, 2018, 9:07 pm
Back to 1939... Novice let us know in the thread about merchant ships: "With the creation of Republican Spain several ships were renamed, in order to remove any royal names, the Alfonso XIII being renamed Habana. In 1939 the ship suffered a fire which caused her to be rebuilt (...)" Here I step in with my AU the following way: The Spanish Civil War was barely over and Spain was in a miserable state (literally!), so Germany - needing desperatly yards to build all types of ships in those times, mainly merchant and passenger transports (and mixed ones as well) - bought the remains of ex-Alfonso XIII 10.550 tons steamer now renamed "Habana" from the Compañía Transatlántica Española because the ship had been badly damaged and was to be rebuilt as a cargo ship. Germany had plans to buy the vessel for its hull which had been made of steel of very good quality and, having aided general Franco to the victory in said civil war, arranged ways to give some occupation to the original construction yard to do a partial rebuilt of the damaged steamer to be then towed to Germany for adaptation into a light aircraft carrier (CVL).

The ship had been built in 1923 by the Sociedad Espñola de Construcción Naval, with a tonnage of 10.551 GRT, a length of 152 meter, a hull width of 18,6 meter and a draught of 10,9 meter. She had a propulsion of two coal fired steam turbines driving two shafts, giving nearly a maximum speed of 20 knots.

Here we see her before the fire damaged her badly:

[ img ]

and here after having been stripped down of all superstructures to prepare the installation of new engines, a flight deck, an island, reinforced bays for the AA armament and the interior spaces according to German detailed plans:

[ img ]

The plans were to lengthen the hull inserting two equal parts fore and aft of her centre of gravity to increase the overall length from 152 to slightly above 200 meter. The displacement was planned to be around 16.500 to 17.000 tons. One new characteristic included in the ship's reinforcement was the addition of a torpedo protection armour belt, but not welded flat to the hull's side, instead slightly concave shaped (like the submarines' buoyancy water/air reservoirs), first slightly riveted in place with a rivet each 60cm to hold the armour belt in place, and then tightly welded to make the compartment really waterproof. The belt was to be made of 5cm hardened steel, the inside was to be hollow with spars to strengthen the entire chambers. And the general shape of this second lateral part to the hull would be like on the submarines. This would give an effective protection against torpedo attacks and would improve the ship's buoyancy and stability in rough seas. This reinforcement was however to be applied to the hull in a German submarine yard when the vessel would arrive there.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Colosseum
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 11:00 pm
Offline
Posts: 5165
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 9:38 pm
Location: Colorado
Contact: Website
Nice work!!

_________________
USN components, camouflage colors, & reference links (World War II only)


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Cargil48
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 5th, 2020, 11:59 pm
Offline
Posts: 246
Joined: April 1st, 2018, 9:07 pm
And the recnversion works done so far (no "siesta" was allowed in the Spanish shipyard!... :D )

[ img ]

The bow was altered and the two hull inserts were done and welded into place. The engine sets were installed (details to be seen in the picture). New bigger screws were installed as well as a new hydraulically operated rudder engine. Diesel power generators were installed but no electrical net was yet done (that will be done in the German shipyard, Vulcan at Bremen). On the engine room level, watertight compartments have been installed with watertight doors. Only the lower deck has got a top cover with all the openings necessary to install later on the tubings and cable networks. It is summer 1940, the political situation in the Baltic region has completely changed, the DKM has suddenly the need for a ship like CVL "Prinz Alfons"...


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 6th, 2020, 1:48 pm
Offline
Posts: 3547
Joined: November 17th, 2010, 8:03 am
Location: Corinth, MS USA
Contact: Website, Skype, YouTube
Nice! Can't wait to see her finished!

_________________
[ img ]
MS State Guard - 08 March 2014 - present

The Official IJN Ships & Planes List


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: AU WWII scenarioPosted: August 6th, 2020, 2:56 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 7329
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 12:25 pm
Location: the netherlands
I am not certain a modification like this would actually work. Lenghtening the ship by about 40% without modifying the beam, hull depth and main cross section likely leads to an ship that breaks in half in the first storm. You also increase drag significantly, so all new propellers, propeller shafts, bearings and stern shape might be required. (or you'd drop speed by over 40%, as the new engines could not be anymore powerful then what was in the ship already) The larger size would also require a new rudder. You already fitted an modified bow...... all in all, building a new ship would be both faster, easier and cheaper..........

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 2 of 12  [ 118 posts ]  Return to “Alternate Universe Designs” | Go to page « 1 2 3 4 512 »

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]