AU WWII scenario
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Author:  Cargil48 [ September 7th, 2020, 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

One design, however, I want to upload here, my AU Schnellboot which itself was an "evolution" of the S-100 class the world knew.

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These boats differed from the S-100 mainly in the shape of the hull (a more V-shaped stepped hull than S-100), its length (more 6,2 meter than S-100), the partial armoured protection made out of light materials based on "Dural" (hardened aluminium) and a mesh of wood. Two types were made, the "A-class" MTB Tarantula, primarily a torpedo launching fast vessel, with one forward placed torpedo tube at each side of the bow having a recharging device at the rear able to load further two units. This tpe of fast vessel had two 20mm single guns, one front, another one aft. The "B-class" Skorpion was a so-called "UZ" (U-Boot Zerstörer) or "submarine chaser". This version was equipped with an automatic trigger equipped depth charger launching device at the stern, able to launch 18 120kg depth charges. The B-class boats had one heavy 12.9mm machine gun mounted in front and two 20mm AA guns mounted amidships, one covering the port side of the boat, the other one the starboard side.

The propulsion was made by three new developped Daimler-Benz 12 V-mounted cylinder supercharged Diesel engines of the type MB OM-512, delivering 1.875 shp each to three controllable pitch screws which propelled the 107 ton vessels up to 38 knots. From 1941 onwards, a bigger engine version, the MB OM-516 with 16 cylinders and intake air cooling ("intercooling") delivering 2.500 shp were installed, increasing the speed at full load to 42,6 knots. The range allowed the boats to sail from Kiel and reach Helsinki at a speed of 32,6 knots average and still have a fuel reserve for another hour.

The boats were equipped with FuMO radar devices with a range of 18km in clear weather and about 5km in rainy weather. The boats operated normally in Rudel ("packs") of four to six boats or even more, depending on the target vessel. In case of surface targets, they followed normally a zigzagging attack course, to confound the defensive artillery, until delivering the torpedos. In the case of the attack on the naval base at Kronstadt in the rainy and windy night of December 19th, 1939, they closed in at slow speed to lessen the noise level and taking use of the radar, they entered the base's main bassin until being able to deliver the torpedos at very close range and engines at idle. Then they turned around and left equally at slow speed first, until reaching the harbour's entrance and then at full speed until arriving at the mouth of the Viborg gulf. (scene somewhat similar to Günther Prien's attack with U-47 at Scapa Flow in the early II War days, sinking HMS Royal Oak).

Author:  Cargil48 [ September 8th, 2020, 3:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

A last post (or so I think):

That theme put up here on one of the first pages regarding the flags to use still swirls around in my head... Definitively under von Witzleben's government, there was no Reich... neither a fully democratic regime like it was before 1933 (the Weimarer Republik). Probably I'll use the black/red/gold flag as the nation's flag and a specific one for the Deutsche Kriegsmarine. This latter designation is perfectly acceptable, since there was (and still is) also a Deutsche Handelsmarine (German merchant navy).

After consulting Wikipedia:

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Author:  Cargil48 [ November 19th, 2020, 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

Rhade wrote: *
So when in 1934 both sides sign German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact they could also sign a "Secret Additional Protocol" (in your face Molotov!) that in case of Soviet aggression Germany will declare a war in defence of Poland just like Poland would if Soviets would attack Prussia.
Sorry for not having answered this suggestion of yours. I did not include this eventual pact because I sincerely do not know how the German/Polish relations were at that time. I know, and let me be honest here, that Germany and Poland never had really "warm" relations and not only because of the "Danzig corridor"...

I have a very long story written in my archives of my computer, regarding the Winter War and the AU German intervention to save the entire Baltic part of east Europe, but that is not exactly the subject of this forum... Let me say only that in a brief summary that my story goes like this:

- The USSR invades the Karelian Isthmus (and Poland, preparing to invade the Baltic States as well).
- Germany mobilizes partially and sends as fast as it can troops and equipment either by sea (and at least here enters the Kriegsmarine...) as well as by land, having declared the "Danzig corridor" now German territory to protect Danzig and East Prussia.
- The first units are sent by train to occupy that corridor and main war ships are put on guard in the bay of Danzig as well as part of the Luftwaffe is transferred to airfields in that region, mainly "Stukas" and their escorting fighters.
- Troops are sent by train through East Prussia and into the Baltic countries to assist them under the new formed "Baltic Alliance" (which got approval from at least the UK and The Netherlands, Sweden insisting in remaining neutral.
- The USSR is totally gotten by surprise since it did not expect Germany to react like it did and even less to see Germany so well prepared to deploy part of its troops in so little time. And the surprise of the USSR is even greater by seeing the way the Finns are able to stop them in the deep snowfields of the Karelian Isthmus as well as in the middle part of Finland and even way up in the north (as it happened in reality).

Author:  Cargil48 [ November 19th, 2020, 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

Rhade wrote: *
Good backstory do dictate a lot of things. In terms of ships it remodel Kriegsmarine to the core, when break GB by atlantic convoy raids is not needed, navy will get a lot less founding and all famous capital ships just not materialize.
Hitler had already put up a plan to reequip also the KM. Yes, to face the UK and to fight the atlantic convoys. This plan in reality was only put up in 1939, but some capital ships were already ordered when the "coup d'état" happened. And the regime of von Witzleben continued to make heavy state investments to occupy jobless people (in part funded by the big industrial bosses as it happened in reality but also getting loans from the USA (sort of Marshall plan in advance...) because of the way Stalin was building up the military power of the USSR. Roosevelt was focused on Japan, sensing the threat coming from that side and was happy enough funding Germany (now under a "pro-western regime"...) to build up a defence against any Soviet threat. Both the UK and the USA had witnessed the weight communists had in Germany before Hitler took the office as well as afterwards in Spain. The "appetite" of Stalin was being sensed and perceived by all the western nations.
Without Anschluss size of army is smaller, without invading Czechoslovakia the industrial capability of Germany is cut down and 34t & 35t is not in Wehrmacht service. Romania is still very important with it oil fields and Soviets attacking it is the solid Casus Belli for Germany that import large quantity of oil from it.

That create a lot of new challenges and ships designs need to take that in to account.

EDIT: in short, Germany will not that much change in terms of air and land... but will be heavily changed in terms of navy. In comparing, Poland Navy will not change at all, but air and maybe land can move in to surprising directions.
There was no Anschluss (of Austria) and no invasion of Czechoslovakia, but with both countries comercial trade agreements were made in the "Vienna Treaty" (and in total secrecy also military cooperation agreements to unify strategies and ways to materialize them by distributing tasks in the areas of development and construction of armoured vehicles mainly and of light armament (both produced mostly by Skoda and Steyr Mannlicher).

Author:  Rhade [ November 20th, 2020, 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

Cargil48 wrote: *
Sorry for not having answered this suggestion of yours. I did not include this eventual pact because I sincerely do not know how the German/Polish relations were at that time. I know, and let me be honest here, that Germany and Poland never had really "warm" relations and not only because of the "Danzig corridor"...
In contradiction to popular belief, Germany/Reich - Polish relations improve after Hitler came to power. Personally little mustache was "fanboy" of Piułsudzki, he valued Poland for it's stiff defence against bolsheviks and saw it as natural ally against Soviet Russia. Not to mention wanna be dictator do like someone who was de facto dictator of Poland. After Piłsudski died there was a mass in Berlin with full ceremony and honor guard over the empty coffin, with Adolf in first row... that man was not a "church" dude, yet he was there. That do show how he respect polish leader. In most cases there had been perfectly normal relations between both nations, with Reich trying to improve it with more cooperation. Germany did not have a direct plan to wage war with Poland (beyond typical general staff plans in case of war with every neighbour, infamous Fall Weiss was created in short time after Franco-British-Polish treaty). Also Pomeranian corridor was not something that was put forward, originally it was even idea of polish engineer that such "corridor" could be build in form of a flyover in which the pillars were hollowed out and prepared to be blown up if necessary. It became a heat point after mentioned treaty as just element of casus belli. If I remember correctly the relations had been on such level that Reich was even hinting potential sell of Me 109.

You need to remember that those had been 30's, many nations had good or improving relations with Germany. Atrocities had been virtually unknown and antisemitic politics not that uncommon, even in Poland with huge jews diaspora systemic anti-Semitism took place. Mostly because number of Jews had been sympathizers of soviets and it took the form of collective responsibility. But, something that is condemned by modern standards or from perspectives of what did happen in war, did not take place before war. Polish - Reich relations collapse to hostility in short time before the war start, Hitler feel betrayed by that Franco - British - Polish treaty and that make him hard core enemy of Poland, he was a petty and vengeful man.

But that part of history is not popular today... you know, having a normal relation with "evil" Third Reich before war is bad. That is the "proof" of Poland being ally of Nazis, such BS. Such scrutiny is not given to actual(!) allies of Reich like Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania of Czechs & Slovaks. So it is treated as "topic we don't speak about".

Author:  Cargil48 [ November 20th, 2020, 1:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

Interesting indeed. Thank you for that long and useful information.

Be it as it may, in my AU Germany now led by von Witzleben tries to help Finland and - having the soviet troops right next to its Eastern borders - takes the possibility given by the huge difficulties the soviets were having with the Finns, to step in much more than previously intended, trying even to conquer Leningrad to transform it back to Saint Petersburg and capital of a new micro-state, Ingria. A new state to be joined later on to the referred "Baltic Alliance". (idea taken from the "status quo" of the Russian civil war between "White Russia" and "the Reds").

But this part is only to underscore my strategic line of this AU, more than this would be far beyond the purpose of this forum, i'd say.

But to go back again to the part where you mention that without the circumstances which led to WWII Germany would have no need for a big Navy, let me ask you: Which need (for a big Navy) did the second German Reich have to build up such a powerful naval force? Well, be it as it may, Germany signed with the UK the AGNA and in my AU did go even beyond the real agreement, by giving the British a guarantee that the German Navy would secure the Baltic as well as the eastern North Atlantic, east of an imaginary line in the middle of the North Sea going North to South, in (more or less) equal distance between the UK and Norway. The UK could concentrate its efforts in "securing its empire" mainly in India and in Malasia, where in both areas troubles began to build up in a worrysome way... in India because of the rising movements to get independence from the British, in Malasia because of the rising Japanese threat.

You may say (again): "But to secure the Baltic and the eastern part of the North Sea and the Artic, Germany would still not need big battleships! Or even aircraft carriers..." Looking from the strict political point of view, yes, there would be no need for it, but Germany wanted to regain at least the "status" it had before the infamous "Treaty of Versailles"! This "treaty" was a real "thorn in the eye" of the German soul and its national pride, believe me! This was -together with the already mentioned strategy to give many jobless working man an employment - the other reason for Berlin (of von Witzleben) to try to seek support from those which made it sign that treaty in Versailles... With the real argument of the Soviet danger over Europe. In other words, Germany had an urgent need to become again a major player in Europe... And in those times, for the public, the two main areas were the Army and the Navy. Aerial power was - after the Spanish civil war - seen then as support to the ground forces but not much more than that... except in the minds of some German high officers having been in Spain and who witnessed the real power of an aerial force doing more than just giving support to the Army...

PS: And in those times everyone interested could see the build-up of the British and US navies, which had then (mid thirties) already quite a few full grown aircraft carriers as well! What for if on the sea there are never "ground forces"? Simple to answer for those having a more deeper knowledge of the military evolution: to be able to fight a new type of warefare where aerial forces worked together with the naval forces. Germany had already some capital ships in the making which would carry some planes aboard. What for? Reconnaissance and even attack of smaller targets at sea.

Author:  Rhade [ November 20th, 2020, 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

Cargil48 wrote: *
But to go back again to the part where you mention that without the circumstances which led to WWII Germany would have no need for a big Navy, let me ask you: Which need (for a big Navy) did the second German Reich have to build up such a powerful naval force?...
Before the Great War, main reason for High Sea Fleet was to thrown a glow towards Royal Navy and secure colonies. In WWII that second reason was non existing, first one was main one. Kriegsmarine fleet composition was created to break GB by long range raids on merchant fleet and isolation by U-boats. There was no doctrine (or at least I don't know about one) for decisive fleet battle and Kriegsmarine avoid confrontation with capital ships of RN. Do KM need battleships... yes, such ship is symbol of power and in your scenario counter towards Soviet Baltic Fleet two.. battlebarges. Do Deutschland class was needed... not that much, large U-boot waffe, nope, fleet carrier, nope. Baltic & Northern fleet of Red Banner was weak and outdated, other Baltic fleets small or tiny. Atlantic operations, unnecessary as there was no "enemy" there. So in that political chessboard the Kriegsmarine fleet composition would be different and it would be hard to convince politicians that they should allocate more funds in navy instead of army and air force (just like it was IRL). Bismarck and Tirpitz would still happen... but Graf Zeppelin, H-class or many type VII would not.

Author:  Cargil48 [ November 20th, 2020, 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AU WWII scenario

Some parts of the text describing the AU-situation were altered (mainly eliminating the CV and CVL) to adapt to what Rhade tells convincingly in the texts above. The list of the composition of the Kriegsmarine on the end of page 5 was also altered to reflect the changes. And this ends this story, not as I intended but as the logic shown to me makes it mandatory.

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