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nighthunter
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 21st, 2015, 3:44 pm
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Fantastic! Now to find my old designs for the Dracan Commonwealth Navy and the Imperial Ryvanskia Navy... Circa WW1

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ezgo394
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 21st, 2015, 7:02 pm
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Location: East Brunswick, Federal Republic of Denton
@JSB, I assumed it like the 2nd point on your list, as the literal first Dreadnought (for my obscure nation ;) ).
I'm updating my Fort-Albany class anyways, and working on another 1911 dreadnought concept, as well as the 1906 concept below, so when I get them done, I'll post all 3 at the same time.

I've worked up an SS report for a 1906 Dreadnought for Denton and I'm curious what ya'll think.
The configuration is like that of HMS Dreadnought, but without the X turret (only 4 turrets).

Concept, Denton Dreadnought laid down 1906

Displacement:
14,686 t light; 15,644 t standard; 16,583 t normal; 17,334 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
448.00 ft / 448.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
136.55 m / 136.55 m x 24.38 m x 7.47 m

Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 7,155 lbs / 3,245 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 304.00 ft / 92.66 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 144.00 ft / 43.89 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 10.0" / 254 mm - 10.0" / 254 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,694 ihp / 16,930 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 5,300nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,690 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
729 - 949

Cost:
£1.719 million / $6.877 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 894 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 4,908 tons, 29.6 %
- Belts: 2,317 tons, 14.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,525 tons, 9.2 %
- Armour Deck: 898 tons, 5.4 %
- Conning Tower: 168 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 3,242 tons, 19.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,561 tons, 33.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,897 tons, 11.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
13,405 lbs / 6,080 Kg = 15.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.661
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 16.07 ft / 4.90 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.8 %
Waterplane Area: 27,733 Square feet or 2,576 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.72
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 21st, 2015, 7:22 pm
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That is a good looking ship GD, I can just imagine having that and Goeben in Turkish waters during WW1.


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JSB
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 21st, 2015, 7:27 pm
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ezgo394 wrote:
I've worked up an SS report for a 1906 Dreadnought for Denton and I'm curious what ya'll think.
The configuration is like that of HMS Dreadnought, but without the X turret (only 4 turrets).
Ok my questions would be,
- can the middle guns cross deck ? (if not 6 guns isn't very strong for salvo ranging etc)
- do the 3" get in the way of the 12" amidships ? and how much boat space do you have with only 448ft length ?
- 'Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces' by how much ? can you tell us the number from top of the spring sharp armour page ?
- 3rd: 10.0" / 254 mm - 10.0" / 254 mm, why very strong casements ?


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ezgo394
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 21st, 2015, 8:19 pm
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Joined: July 27th, 2010, 2:39 am
Location: East Brunswick, Federal Republic of Denton
-I wasn't planning on it, however, I can create an open space between the two. However, this would mean that one turret would fire over the other. I wasn't going to offset it either, essentially making the top down configuration a '+' .
-It would be similar to your King Edward VII class, with the structure in front and aft of the wing turrets containing the casemates. The deck mount guns will be placed around the upper level of the superstructure, but that number may come down if it does not fit like i want it to. As for the boats, I haven't started laying it out yet, but I was going to put them on the upper structure, aft of the amidship turrets.
-Fixed. It was 302ft, but I input a wrong value with the mount #s and after I revised it, it lengthened the minimum armor belt to 310.76ft
-Yeah, I got that number from the South Carolina BB-26. However, I can bring that down to 5-7 inches.

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JSB
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 12:30 am
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Joined: January 21st, 2014, 5:33 pm
I have added my ship in to first post, JSB

http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... 46#p144392


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apdsmith
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 1:34 am
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Joined: August 29th, 2013, 5:58 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
Good morning all,

I can't see any obvious errors with this, it's a hybrid between the von der Tann and the Nassau-class - the armour scheme is as per the Nassau-class, as is the top speed, but the gun layout is von der Tann and it's powered by turbines rather than VTE. At this point in NSWE's existence it won't have the facilities to build battleships, so this one will have been purchased straight from Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshaven, which is partly the reason for going for a "budget" dreadnought. This one doesn't clear the minimum weight limit by much, but I think that's acceptable for a little BB like this.

Schlachtschiff 1908, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Battleship laid down 1908

Displacement:
16,956 t light; 17,937 t standard; 19,310 t normal; 20,408 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
544.62 ft / 541.34 ft x 83.66 ft x 27.13 ft (normal load)
166.00 m / 165.00 m x 25.50 m x 8.27 m

Armament:
4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
10 - 5.87" / 149 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 19.84lbs / 9.00kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,643 lbs / 3,013 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m
Ends: 3.15" / 80 mm 243.57 ft / 74.24 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m
Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 26.21 ft / 7.99 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
3rd: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm
4th: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm

- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,776 shp / 19,975 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,500nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,471 tons

Complement:
818 - 1,064

Cost:
£1.505 million / $6.019 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 860 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 6,904 tons, 35.8 %
- Belts: 2,719 tons, 14.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 341 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 1,758 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 1,842 tons, 9.5 %
- Conning Tower: 244 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 1,352 tons, 7.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,874 tons, 35.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,354 tons, 12.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 966 tons, 5.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,362 lbs / 13,318 Kg = 42.5 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 88 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.77

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (60 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.9 %
Waterplane Area: 31,607 Square feet or 2,936 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 724 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.90
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Any thoughts?

Regards,
Adam

edit: pants on head moment resolved

further edit: original SS data for comparison:
Schlachtschiff A, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Battleship laid down 1908

Displacement:
17,526 t light; 18,520 t standard; 19,916 t normal; 21,032 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
544.62 ft / 541.34 ft x 82.02 ft x 28.54 ft (normal load)
166.00 m / 165.00 m x 25.00 m x 8.70 m

Armament:
4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
10 - 5.87" / 149 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1906 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
16 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 19.84lbs / 9.00kg shells, 1905 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,643 lbs / 3,013 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m
Ends: 3.15" / 80 mm 243.57 ft / 74.24 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m
Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.18" / 30 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 26.21 ft / 7.99 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
2nd: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm
3rd: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm
4th: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm

- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 27,185 shp / 20,280 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 4,500nm at 14.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,512 tons

Complement:
837 - 1,089

Cost:
£1.528 million / $6.111 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 860 tons, 4.3 %
Armour: 6,188 tons, 31.1 %
- Belts: 2,034 tons, 10.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 341 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,758 tons, 8.8 %
- Armour Deck: 1,806 tons, 9.1 %
- Conning Tower: 249 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 1,373 tons, 6.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,848 tons, 34.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,389 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 2,258 tons, 11.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,453 lbs / 11,999 Kg = 38.3 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (60 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Average freeboard: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.8 %
Waterplane Area: 30,987 Square feet or 2,879 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.93
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

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Last edited by apdsmith on June 22nd, 2015, 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 5:04 am
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Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact: Website
Looks good Adam, just need the drawing now :)


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 6:09 am
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Posts: 2431
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact: Website
The United Kingdom and its shipbuilding industry made plenty of money from the sale of ships to other nations, right up to ships the size of battleships. Brazil was one country that was a regular customer and once it had seen the Dreadnought, ordered two of their own. 22,000 ton ships, they were 590 feet by 86 feet. Armour was the same 11" belt as the Dreadnought with 9"-6" ends. Speed at 23 knots gave them a decided advantage over the Argentinian and Chilean pre-dreadnoughts, sparking a Dreadnought race in South America.

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eltf177
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 10:07 am
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 5:03 pm
apdsmith wrote:
Schlachtschiff A, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Battleship laid down 1908

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Miscellaneous weights: 2,258 tons, 11.3 %
That seems to be a great deal of miscellaneous weight...


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