Shipbucket http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/ |
|
Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=6146 |
Page 2 of 14 |
Author: | nighthunter [ June 21st, 2015, 3:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
Fantastic! Now to find my old designs for the Dracan Commonwealth Navy and the Imperial Ryvanskia Navy... Circa WW1 |
Author: | ezgo394 [ June 21st, 2015, 7:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
@JSB, I assumed it like the 2nd point on your list, as the literal first Dreadnought (for my obscure nation ). I'm updating my Fort-Albany class anyways, and working on another 1911 dreadnought concept, as well as the 1906 concept below, so when I get them done, I'll post all 3 at the same time. I've worked up an SS report for a 1906 Dreadnought for Denton and I'm curious what ya'll think. The configuration is like that of HMS Dreadnought, but without the X turret (only 4 turrets). Concept, Denton Dreadnought laid down 1906 Displacement: 14,686 t light; 15,644 t standard; 16,583 t normal; 17,334 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 448.00 ft / 448.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load) 136.55 m / 136.55 m x 24.38 m x 7.47 m Armament: 4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, evenly spread 4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on side, all amidships 10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model Breech loading guns in casemate mounts on side ends, evenly spread 8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model Breech loading guns in deck mounts on side, all amidships Weight of broadside 7,155 lbs / 3,245 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 150 2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 304.00 ft / 92.66 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 144.00 ft / 43.89 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 3rd: 10.0" / 254 mm - 10.0" / 254 mm 4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - - - Armour deck: 1.75" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,694 ihp / 16,930 Kw = 20.00 kts Range 5,300nm at 10.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1,690 tons (100% coal) Complement: 729 - 949 Cost: £1.719 million / $6.877 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 894 tons, 5.4 % Armour: 4,908 tons, 29.6 % - Belts: 2,317 tons, 14.0 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 % - Armament: 1,525 tons, 9.2 % - Armour Deck: 898 tons, 5.4 % - Conning Tower: 168 tons, 1.0 % Machinery: 3,242 tons, 19.5 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,561 tons, 33.5 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,897 tons, 11.4 % Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.5 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 13,405 lbs / 6,080 Kg = 15.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21 Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m Roll period: 15.0 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck Block coefficient: 0.661 Length to Beam Ratio: 5.60 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 21.17 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m - Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m - Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m - Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m - Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m - Average freeboard: 16.07 ft / 4.90 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.9 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.8 % Waterplane Area: 27,733 Square feet or 2,576 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.94 - Longitudinal: 1.72 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily |
Author: | Krakatoa [ June 21st, 2015, 7:22 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
That is a good looking ship GD, I can just imagine having that and Goeben in Turkish waters during WW1. |
Author: | JSB [ June 21st, 2015, 7:27 pm ] | |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 | |
I've worked up an SS report for a 1906 Dreadnought for Denton and I'm curious what ya'll think.
Ok my questions would be,The configuration is like that of HMS Dreadnought, but without the X turret (only 4 turrets). - can the middle guns cross deck ? (if not 6 guns isn't very strong for salvo ranging etc) - do the 3" get in the way of the 12" amidships ? and how much boat space do you have with only 448ft length ? - 'Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces' by how much ? can you tell us the number from top of the spring sharp armour page ? - 3rd: 10.0" / 254 mm - 10.0" / 254 mm, why very strong casements ? |
Author: | ezgo394 [ June 21st, 2015, 8:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
-I wasn't planning on it, however, I can create an open space between the two. However, this would mean that one turret would fire over the other. I wasn't going to offset it either, essentially making the top down configuration a '+' . -It would be similar to your King Edward VII class, with the structure in front and aft of the wing turrets containing the casemates. The deck mount guns will be placed around the upper level of the superstructure, but that number may come down if it does not fit like i want it to. As for the boats, I haven't started laying it out yet, but I was going to put them on the upper structure, aft of the amidship turrets. -Fixed. It was 302ft, but I input a wrong value with the mount #s and after I revised it, it lengthened the minimum armor belt to 310.76ft -Yeah, I got that number from the South Carolina BB-26. However, I can bring that down to 5-7 inches. |
Author: | JSB [ June 22nd, 2015, 12:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
I have added my ship in to first post, JSB http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... 46#p144392 |
Author: | apdsmith [ June 22nd, 2015, 1:34 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
Good morning all, I can't see any obvious errors with this, it's a hybrid between the von der Tann and the Nassau-class - the armour scheme is as per the Nassau-class, as is the top speed, but the gun layout is von der Tann and it's powered by turbines rather than VTE. At this point in NSWE's existence it won't have the facilities to build battleships, so this one will have been purchased straight from Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshaven, which is partly the reason for going for a "budget" dreadnought. This one doesn't clear the minimum weight limit by much, but I think that's acceptable for a little BB like this. Schlachtschiff 1908, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Battleship laid down 1908 Displacement: 16,956 t light; 17,937 t standard; 19,310 t normal; 20,408 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 544.62 ft / 541.34 ft x 83.66 ft x 27.13 ft (normal load) 166.00 m / 165.00 m x 25.50 m x 8.27 m Armament: 4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, evenly spread 4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on side, all amidships 10 - 5.87" / 149 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1906 Model Quick firing guns in casemate mounts on side, evenly spread 10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas 16 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 19.84lbs / 9.00kg shells, 1905 Model Quick firing guns in casemate mounts on side, evenly spread Weight of broadside 6,643 lbs / 3,013 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 150 4 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m Ends: 3.15" / 80 mm 243.57 ft / 74.24 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m Upper: 6.30" / 160 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Torpedo Bulkhead: 1.18" / 30 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 26.21 ft / 7.99 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm 2nd: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm 3rd: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 4th: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm - Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,776 shp / 19,975 Kw = 21.00 kts Range 4,500nm at 14.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 2,471 tons Complement: 818 - 1,064 Cost: £1.505 million / $6.019 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 860 tons, 4.5 % Armour: 6,904 tons, 35.8 % - Belts: 2,719 tons, 14.1 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 341 tons, 1.8 % - Armament: 1,758 tons, 9.1 % - Armour Deck: 1,842 tons, 9.5 % - Conning Tower: 244 tons, 1.3 % Machinery: 1,352 tons, 7.0 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,874 tons, 35.6 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,354 tons, 12.2 % Miscellaneous weights: 966 tons, 5.0 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 29,362 lbs / 13,318 Kg = 42.5 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07 Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m Roll period: 16.8 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 88 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.77 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck Block coefficient: 0.550 Length to Beam Ratio: 6.47 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 23.27 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m - Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Mid (60 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Average freeboard: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.0 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.9 % Waterplane Area: 31,607 Square feet or 2,936 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 724 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.93 - Longitudinal: 1.90 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather Any thoughts? Regards, Adam edit: pants on head moment resolved further edit: original SS data for comparison: Schlachtschiff A, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Battleship laid down 1908 Displacement: 17,526 t light; 18,520 t standard; 19,916 t normal; 21,032 t full load Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught 544.62 ft / 541.34 ft x 82.02 ft x 28.54 ft (normal load) 166.00 m / 165.00 m x 25.00 m x 8.70 m Armament: 4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on centreline ends, evenly spread 4 - 11.14" / 283 mm guns (2x2 guns), 665.80lbs / 302.00kg shells, 1907 Model Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes) on side, all amidships 10 - 5.87" / 149 mm guns in single mounts, 99.87lbs / 45.30kg shells, 1906 Model Quick firing guns in casemate mounts on side, evenly spread 10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas 16 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 19.84lbs / 9.00kg shells, 1905 Model Quick firing guns in casemate mounts on side, evenly spread Weight of broadside 6,643 lbs / 3,013 kg Shells per gun, main battery: 150 4 - 17.7" / 450 mm submerged torpedo tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 11.8" / 300 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m Ends: 3.15" / 80 mm 243.57 ft / 74.24 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Torpedo Bulkhead: 1.18" / 30 mm 297.74 ft / 90.75 m 26.21 ft / 7.99 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm 2nd: 11.0" / 280 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 11.0" / 280 mm 3rd: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 4th: 3.15" / 80 mm 6.30" / 160 mm 6.30" / 160 mm - Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 15.75" / 400 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 27,185 shp / 20,280 Kw = 21.00 kts Range 4,500nm at 14.00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 2,512 tons Complement: 837 - 1,089 Cost: £1.528 million / $6.111 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 860 tons, 4.3 % Armour: 6,188 tons, 31.1 % - Belts: 2,034 tons, 10.2 % - Torpedo bulkhead: 341 tons, 1.7 % - Armament: 1,758 tons, 8.8 % - Armour Deck: 1,806 tons, 9.1 % - Conning Tower: 249 tons, 1.3 % Machinery: 1,373 tons, 6.9 % Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,848 tons, 34.4 % Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,389 tons, 12.0 % Miscellaneous weights: 2,258 tons, 11.3 % Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 26,453 lbs / 11,999 Kg = 38.3 x 11.1 " / 283 mm shells or 4.3 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01 Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m Roll period: 17.7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck Block coefficient: 0.550 Length to Beam Ratio: 6.60 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 23.27 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length): - Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m - Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Mid (60 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Quarterdeck (20 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Stern: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m - Average freeboard: 20.67 ft / 6.30 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.9 % - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.8 % Waterplane Area: 30,987 Square feet or 2,879 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 % Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0.93 - Longitudinal: 1.93 - Overall: 1.00 Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather |
Author: | Krakatoa [ June 22nd, 2015, 5:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
Looks good Adam, just need the drawing now |
Author: | Krakatoa [ June 22nd, 2015, 6:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 |
The United Kingdom and its shipbuilding industry made plenty of money from the sale of ships to other nations, right up to ships the size of battleships. Brazil was one country that was a regular customer and once it had seen the Dreadnought, ordered two of their own. 22,000 ton ships, they were 590 feet by 86 feet. Armour was the same 11" belt as the Dreadnought with 9"-6" ends. Speed at 23 knots gave them a decided advantage over the Argentinian and Chilean pre-dreadnoughts, sparking a Dreadnought race in South America. |
Author: | eltf177 [ June 22nd, 2015, 10:07 am ] | |
Post subject: | Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10 | |
Schlachtschiff A, New Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach Battleship laid down 1908
That seems to be a great deal of miscellaneous weight...
Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Miscellaneous weights: 2,258 tons, 11.3 % |
Page 2 of 14 | All times are UTC |
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited https://www.phpbb.com/ |