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ezgo394
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 24th, 2015, 12:12 am
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Joined: July 27th, 2010, 2:39 am
Location: East Brunswick, Federal Republic of Denton
I've changed the parameters of Denton's design, basically lengthening it by 48ft and adding two more turrets, in a hexagonal configuration.
Here's the layout so far. Following the progression of the DN, cage masts will be present forward and aft and the boats will be in between the two wing turrets. Casemates will be forward and aft of the wing turrets, with 3" deck guns spread around the rest of the ship.
I've gone with VTEs initially, due to Denton's (somewhat) foolish desire to build it domestically, meaning that VTEs would be the best option rather than importing some turbines. However, if this were to be built, it is likely that it would be redesigned with turbines and built abroad, either in the US or the UK.

[ img ]
Concept 2, Denton Dreadnought laid down 1907

Displacement:
15,663 t light; 16,721 t standard; 17,693 t normal; 18,471 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
496.00 ft / 496.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
151.18 m / 151.18 m x 24.38 m x 7.47 m

Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
14 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 5.70lbs / 2.58kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 11,289 lbs / 5,120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 105
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 316.00 ft / 96.32 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 7.00" / 178 mm - 7.00" / 178 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,430 ihp / 13,749 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 5,300nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,751 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
766 - 997

Cost:
£2.020 million / $8.081 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,411 tons, 8.0 %
Armour: 5,545 tons, 31.3 %
- Belts: 2,493 tons, 14.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,182 tons, 12.3 %
- Armour Deck: 695 tons, 3.9 %
- Conning Tower: 176 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,048 tons, 11.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,579 tons, 37.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,030 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,356 lbs / 6,965 Kg = 17.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 15.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.637
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.20 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.80 ft / 4.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.1 %
Waterplane Area: 30,036 Square feet or 2,790 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 803 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.31
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Edit: Added casemates. Updated secondaries from 3" to 5" (common calibers) and added 4 more casemates. Had an idea with space between wing turrets to throw in a spot for the extra 4 casemates. Boats will go on top.
The more I play with it, I wish I had a higher freeboard (which would require more draught), but this makes it more interesting and more of a balancing act.

Thoughts?

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Worklist: Entire modern day (2013) Denton and Salide Militaries
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Drawings are signed as E.Z. Goin - Please feel free to call me EZ or Ethan


Last edited by ezgo394 on June 24th, 2015, 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 24th, 2015, 1:49 am
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Location: New Zealand
Contact: Website
It looks a good start, it will be interesting to see how it progresses through its building stages.


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bezobrazov
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 24th, 2015, 11:45 pm
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:20 pm
Much, MUCH improved! What I now lack is some sort of bow ornamentation akin to the Sverige-class, and name plate at the stern. I'd personally experiment with fitting a third funnel at the forward extreme end of the aft superstructure, and maybe making the first funnel thinner. Also, I wonder if there might be a way of rearranging the forward secondary turret cluster, maybe move one pair aft? Right now it looks unnecessarily cramped, but I know it's overall a tight fit.

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 12:38 am
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Location: New Zealand
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Howdy Ari,

I did think about carrying the emblem and name board from the Sverige, but that is a Swedish thing and this is supposed to be Scandinavia. The name for this ship is Norge and would require a different CofA on the bow.

With the funnel on the aft superstructure, that would imply an extra boiler room under it and would cramp up the engineering spaces for the turbines. It is also the area that I had marked for the extra bunkerage for the extra range Heuhen mentioned.

The secondary turrets are where they are to keep as good an arc of fire for the main turrets, especially the 'Q' turret.

[ img ]


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waritem
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 11:27 am
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Joined: August 4th, 2011, 6:37 am
Location: France
I was about to start the complete story of the cretan battleships design (from 1885 to 1940) starting from the first class, but this challenge was to tempting……………..

This drawing is based on the Garlicdesign AU Agosta, which I “retrodesigned” with elements of the Vérité and Massena from the same author ( I also design a bit of specific parts….:-).

Coming to the all-big-gun design was quite a natural evolution for the Cretan battleships.

To rationalize their cruiser fleet, cretan had only one type: cruiser, which was between protected and armored ones. Thus the cretan battleship were a mix between armored cruisers and battleships of other navies.
As I told before, in the pre-dreadnaught period they were mainly influenced by the French design. They briefly adopted the diamond layout of four single main turrets. But, frustrated with the unability to fire a full volley, they quickly altered this schema to an echelon one. So they never felt the need of going for the classical two twin main turrets design. Since as early as the 1880’s The Cretan tactic was to focus on long range gunfire and use speed to avoid the short range engagement. Although they should almost rely on luck to hit the enemy, it ensured them to keep their precious ship and crew.
There was no need for a secondary main battery, and the magazine for 305 mm shell should be increased as numerous salvos were to be fired to hit.
Cretan conception always favored speed over protection, so the turbine use in battleship was already successfully experimented in the second ship of the 1900 class (Cretan class are named by year of launch of the first ship, they built 2 battleships class every five years).

Going for twin main turrets, keeping the echelon four turrets design theoretically enable a Cretan ship to deal with two foreign battleships with a reasonable increase of the crew . This design was retained for the 1905 class. Typical to the Cretan ships of the period, it mixed innovative and obsolete elements, combining single-main-caliber, fully turreted secondary battery, and steam turbine; with cut-away bow, armored mast, and prow hunt light gun.

But the electoral victory of the pacifist movement after the bloody war of 1904 against the Ottoman Empire stopped the program. The first ship was launched in 1905 but no further works were done on it. A moratorium on new battleship purchase was proclaimed and lasted until 1920. The last Cretan battleship ever launched was sold to a Cretan shipping company and converted into a small liner.

[ img ]

Overview: 18.500 tons normal, 19.500 tons full load, 22 knots, 4x2 – 305mm/45, 6x2 – 165mm/50 guns, 12 – 80mm/50 guns, , 16 – 50mm/40 guns, 2 - 450 torpedo tubes, Armour 250mm vertical/45-75mm horizontal.

I think I will also “take up the gantlet” of the Garlic “Kanuni Sultan Suleiman” by updating my old “super Abdul Kadir”…….;-)

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Alexandre Dumas

JE SUIS CHARLIE


Last edited by waritem on June 26th, 2017, 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 11:46 am
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Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact: Website
Well done Waritem, excellent backstory, and a good looking battleship with definite French overtones.


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Yasutomi
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 2:23 pm
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Joined: August 14th, 2011, 7:18 pm
I simply couldn't resist. This challenge has not only summoned me back; it has also motivated me to dust off a very old project which I was never able to satisfactorily finish.

[ img ]

Taban, Samudra Dreadnought laid down 1909

Displacement:
17,823 t light; 18,946 t standard; 19,734 t normal; 20,365 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(513.00 ft / 513.00 ft) x 88.00 ft x (25.50 / 26.17 ft)
(156.36 m / 156.36 m) x 26.82 m x (7.77 / 7.98 m)

Armament:
9 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 849.99lbs / 385.55kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1906 Model
3 x 3-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority aft
1 raised mount aft - superfiring
10 - 6.00" / 152 mm 45.0 cal guns - 108.93lbs / 49.41kg shells, 150 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1909 Model
10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
10 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
Weight of broadside 8,739 lbs / 3,964 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 345.00 ft / 105.16 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 167.99 ft / 51.20 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 8.00" / 203 mm 280.00 ft / 85.34 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
3.00" / 76 mm 345.00 ft / 105.16 m 24.50 ft / 7.47 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 62.00 ft / 18.90 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 8.00" / 203 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 26,503 shp / 19,771 Kw = 20.61 kts
Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,419 tons (25% coal)

Complement:
832 - 1,082

Cost:
£1.580 million / $6.320 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,876 tons, 9.5 %
- Guns: 1,876 tons, 9.5 %
Armour: 7,848 tons, 39.8 %
- Belts: 3,411 tons, 17.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 938 tons, 4.8 %
- Armament: 1,669 tons, 8.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,641 tons, 8.3 %
- Conning Tower: 189 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 1,233 tons, 6.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,866 tons, 34.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,911 tons, 9.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,329 lbs / 16,932 Kg = 43.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.73

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.603
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.65 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -8.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.47 %, 25.50 ft / 7.77 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forward deck: 44.74 %, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Aft deck: 22.51 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Quarter deck: 12.28 %, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m, 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 21.34 ft / 6.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.2 %
Waterplane Area: 33,018 Square feet or 3,067 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 819 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 2.20
- Overall: 1.02
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

The design is heavily influenced by Jabba's rendition of HMS Erin, but the only parts actually taken from that drawing are the flag (suitably modified), the spotting top (again, modified- and I redrew the tripod), the ship's boats and the crane winches; is that substantial enough to require crediting?


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 5:53 pm
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Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact: Website
That's a good looking ship Yasutomi, glad you shared it with us. It is the type of small dreadnought that would be very popular as an export model.


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ezgo394
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 7:07 pm
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Joined: July 27th, 2010, 2:39 am
Location: East Brunswick, Federal Republic of Denton
An update to the Denton Dreadnought.

[ img ]
Changes include draught increase by 1ft, beam increase by 4ft and an overall increase in tonnage, by about 500 tons. Next up is the final installation of details, unless anyone has any comments on the overall design.
Concept 1907, Denton Dreadnought laid down 1907

Displacement:
15,853 t light; 16,919 t standard; 18,155 t normal; 19,143 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
496.00 ft / 496.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 25.50 ft (normal load)
151.18 m / 151.18 m x 25.60 m x 7.77 m

Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships
14 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 5.70lbs / 2.59kg shells, 1907 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 11,289 lbs / 5,120 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 105
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 316.00 ft / 96.32 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 8.00" / 203 mm 180.00 ft / 54.86 m 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 12.0" / 305 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
3rd: 7.00" / 178 mm - 7.00" / 178 mm
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,555 ihp / 13,842 Kw = 19.00 kts
Range 6,800nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,224 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
781 - 1,016

Cost:
£2.029 million / $8.115 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,411 tons, 7.8 %
Armour: 5,563 tons, 30.6 %
- Belts: 2,499 tons, 13.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2,182 tons, 12.0 %
- Armour Deck: 703 tons, 3.9 %
- Conning Tower: 179 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 2,062 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,737 tons, 37.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,302 tons, 12.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16,149 lbs / 7,325 Kg = 18.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.598
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.27 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Stern: 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 13.80 ft / 4.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.4 %
Waterplane Area: 30,418 Square feet or 2,826 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 814 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.39
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

-Ethan

_________________
[ img ] [ img ]
Many thanks to Rowdy36, who created the banners
Worklist: Entire modern day (2013) Denton and Salide Militaries
Austellus Hemisphaeria Wiki Pages

Drawings are signed as E.Z. Goin - Please feel free to call me EZ or Ethan


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: Challenge "My Countries First Dreadnought" 1905-10Posted: June 25th, 2015, 8:29 pm
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Posts: 2466
Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact: Website
Looking good ezgo394. keep it coming!


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