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1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7650	Page 2 of 2

Author:	erik_t [ May 4th, 2017, 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
A ship designed for almost overnight forays into enemy territory is probably a pretty poor blueprint for a raider that shall cruise on its lonesome for weeks at a time. If we are to trust Wikipedia, Abdiel was designed for 1000nmi at 38 knots, about a 26 hour cruise. Even halving the required range, 10000nmi at 17 knots is almost twenty times that. Provisions must be consumed, things will break, repairers will be required, crew need space... I think a factor of two in displacement is actually not so generous at all.

Author:	Krakatoa [ May 4th, 2017, 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
I am not sure it is possible to fulfil all of your requirements, but I gave it a go. Displacement: 3,700 tons standard, 5,350 full load. (Lots of displacement devoted to fuel) Dimensions: 410 x 44 x 18 feet Machinery: centre shaft - MAN 8-cyl. Diesel, 5,000bhp outer shafts - geared turbines, 55,000shp Speed: 17-18 knots diesels only, 34-37 knots with both at full output. (Highest speed would depend on lowest displacement possible) Endurance: up to 15,000 nmi at 12 knots with mix of diesel and turbines running. Armour: nil (1.5" box round magazines) Armament: 4 x 5.9" (2x2) 2 x 37mm (1x2) 4 x 20mm (4x1) Torpedoes: 4 x 21" (2x2) Crew: 250

Author:	Hood [ May 5th, 2017, 7:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
The Abdiel Class never reached 40kts or anywhere near it. This myth never dies. They are not therefore suitable candidates to use as a rule of thumb comparison. I can't think of any ship of that era with such range. Even if you could get 40kts out of this ship, the chances of outrunning a cruiser in open Atlantic waters is not very likely, the sea conditions are never going to allow you to actually reach high speeds given the sea motion and slamming experienced. Also, given your scenario is 1934-36, the high-pressure steam powerplants and high-power diesel engines just aren't available or reliable enough. The Germans tried this concept with quite a few designs for large oceanic destroyers from 1938 and leading to the Spahkreuser which was laid down but never completed. I suggest these might be a more sound basis for what you have in mind.

Author:	Krakatoa [ May 6th, 2017, 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
The biggest problem for a raider adhering to the Geneva Convention is having space for captured crews. Because of this a supply ship for the raider is essential. Capturing and/or sinking half a dozen enemy ships will fill the empty spaces up. What about prize crews? If you capture a merchantman with a valuable cargo. it is not just enough to deny it to your enemy, but if you can get it home it will aid your country as well. What if you fall in with a convoy - your raider would easily be chased off by the escort who would almost be as big as the raider to be designed for this challenge. The smaller your ship is the less effective as a raider it will be. Hood's suggestion of the Spahkreuzer is probably ok, but again it is not really big enough to fulfil the job description for a decent raider. The Graf Spee type were about as small as a raider warship should be. The converted merchantmen were best of all. Those did more damage to the Allies than all the warship raiders put together. Raiders are expendable. The converted merchantmen were not of use bottled up in port once war began.

Author:	Charguizard [ May 15th, 2017, 2:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
Well this took me a while... Alternate scheme for the He 60 is for super sneaky high seas antics of course Will post stats once I redo the SS report since I changed armament midway, but I'll leave you with: 34 kt @ 78,000 hp 8,100 nm @ 15 kt 3 shafts, 1 diesel plant and 2 geared turbine sets, oil fired boilers 12.7 cm SK C/25 in 6xI configuration More to come, your comments are welcome!

Author:	Rodondo [ May 20th, 2017, 3:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
Well count me in

Author:	Rodondo [ July 25th, 2017, 2:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
Still WIP don't know if I'll ever finish it Designed from the outset to operate as a long range aviso/training ship, the 1935 5600t Langtreken-See Licht-Kreuzer (Google translate ) This ship could house and teach up to 180 cadets alongside a crew of 348 men, and could steam from Germany to Perth (Aus) and return without refueling or circumnavigate the globe unassisted. In addition to this, in wartime the cadet space aft could be converted to hold 150 mines or up to 400 PoW. Boasting a large ship's hospital, the ship also had two wards, one aft for the PoW which in peacetime was a classroom for cadets. These ships were meant to facilitate an influx of cadets projected for the expanding Kriegmarine Type: Light cruiser Displacement: Design: 5,680 t Full load: 7100t Length: 145.30 m Beam: 13.24m Draft: 7.01m Propulsion: 6 diesel-fired boilers two steam turbines one diesel engine 50,000 hp (23,100 kW) Speed:30.2kts Range: 23,800 nmi at 15 knots Crew: 19 officers 348 enlisted Armament: 4 × 15 cm SK L/45 guns 2 × 8.8 cm SK L/45 guns 4 × 50 cm (20 in) torpedo tubes 150 mines Armor: Belt: 50 mm Deck: 50 mm Number projected 6-7 units Ship depicted is Wiesbaden

Author:	Hood [ July 25th, 2017, 7:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 1934-1936 German Raider competition: Ardanian AU
A nice looking design and one that certainly packs enough varied weapons into a compact ship. My only concern would be the low freeboard aft which would make the aft decks pretty wet in open waters, although your long forecastle would probably help a little in head seas.

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