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Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
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Author:  Keisser [ June 30th, 2017, 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
I agree that before implementing the convoy system a big raider may cause great problems for merchant shipping. However, as soon as it will be implemented, your raider transforms from hunter into a prey. Any capital ship with convoy will be a permanent death to old (though refitted) dreadnought. Even the old New York or Repulse will make convoy a very very tough target for you.
Anyways, I'd not think that avoiding radars and aviation will make your life easy. As soon as your foe understands that you are using capital ship for raiding, he will search you. Until he finds and kills your raider.
Author:  Krakatoa [ July 2nd, 2017, 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
One for Tempest.

Wurtemburg and Sachsen.

Last of the four Bayern class, the Wurtemburg was only 90% complete at wars end and it was not till 1921 that permission was given to complete the ship when the French and British forces failed to restore the Russian Royalist parliamentary system. The other three completed ships had been seized and ceded one to France, one to Britain and one to the USA.

[ img ]

Displacement: 29,500 tons normal, 33,800 tons full load.
Dimensions: 620 x 101 x 30 feet
Machinery: 3 shaft, turbines, 50,000shp
Speed: 22 knots
Endurance: 8,000 nmi at 12 knots
Armour: 13.75" belt, 1.5" deck, 13.75"/7.1"/4.1" turrets
Armament:
8 x 16.5" (4x2)
16 x 5.9" (16x1)
4 x 3.4" AA (4x1)
Torpedoes: 6 x 500mm (6x1 underwater)
Crew: 1200 (1300 as flagship)

Wurtemburg was completed to the same standard as the earlier Bayern class ships. The largest problem for the German designers was the lack of length between B and X turrets for new superstructures. The Bayerns had 184 ft between barbettes, while these ships equivalents in the British Navy, Queen Elizabeth had 244 ft and the R class had 208 ft, a clear advantage for modernising the ships.

[ img ]

The new superstructures and funnel gave the ship a true Germanic look when compared to the other rebuilt and newly built ships. The provision of the new 5.1" twin dual-purpose turrets for the secondary armament gave the ship a nice balance of armaments. The biggest problem with the short citadel, was the lack of space to get enough horsepower out of any new propulsion system for more than about 24 knots, where 26-27 knots would have been preferable. The increase of the deck armour to 5.1" was necessary after what Billy Mitchell did to the Baden.

Displacement: 31,000 tons normal, 35,300 tons full load.
Dimensions: 620 x 101 x 30 feet
Machinery: 3 shaft, geared turbines, 70,000shp
Speed: 24 knots
Endurance: 8,000 nmi at 15 knots
Armour: 13.75" belt, 5.1" deck, 13.75"/7.1"/4.1" turrets
Armament:
8 x 16.5" (4x2)
12 x 5.1" (6x2)
12 x 37mm (6x2)
8 x 20mm (8x1)
Crew: 1200 (1300 as flagship)


Baden (1916) Tested to destruction by Britain. Sunk as target 1924.
Bayern (1916) To the USA, various tests carried out then target for aircraft.
Sachsen (1918) To France - kept in service - scuttled at Toulon 1942.
Wurtemburg (1923) Lost ? (have not written that battle yet)

As part of Frances reparation package the French received one completed (Sachsen) Baden class battleship from Germany. The Sachsen was a useful addition to the French fleet and was inducted and renamed Verdun.

[ img ]

Displacement: 29,500 tons normal, 33,800 tons full load.
Dimensions: 620 x 101 x 30 feet
Machinery: 3 shaft, turbines, 50,000shp
Speed: 22 knots
Endurance: 8,000 nmi at 12 knots
Armour: 13.75" belt, 5.1" deck, 13.75"/7.1"/4.1" turrets
Armament:
8 x 16.5" (4x2)
16 x 5.9" (16x1)
4 x 3.4" AA (4x1)
Torpedoes: 6 x 500mm (6x1 underwater)
Crew: 1200 (1300 as flagship)

Above FAN Verdun as the ship was received in 1920. When compared to the Lorraine class the French Navy was very glad to get the ship. What the ship also did for the French Navy was to give them a superlative 16" gun that could be copied and used for any Washington Treaty battleships that would be built in the future.

The Verdun carried on in service as the ship was received through to 1935 when the ship was taken in hand for a rebuilding to bring the ship up to modern standards. Like other ships of WW1 vintage the mid-30's gave the ships a new life refurbishment. The ship between B and X turrets was completely stripped. New propulsion systems, superstructures and deck armour were fitted in the space provided while a new secondary armament and light AA armament were also fitted.

Displacement: 31,000 tons normal, 35,300 tons full load.
Dimensions: 620 x 101 x 30 feet
Machinery: 3 shaft, geared turbines, 74,000shp
Speed: 24 knots
Endurance: 8,000 nmi at 15 knots
Armour: 13.75" belt, 5.1" deck, 13.75"/7.1"/4.1" turrets
Armament:
8 x 16.5" (4x2)
16 x 5.1" (4x4)
8 x 37mm (4x2)
30 x 25mm (15x2)
Crew: 1200 (1300 as flagship)

[ img ]
Author:  Krakatoa [ July 7th, 2017, 10:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
[ img ]


I have tried a drawing with 3x3 portholes as per Colos drawing. I used the Verdun drawing as being the last in the previous post to make it easier to compare.
Author:  Hood [ July 10th, 2017, 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
I've got to say, i'm a convert to the 3x3 porthole, it looks so much better.
Author:  Colosseum [ July 10th, 2017, 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
Yeah looking good.

It's funny, I didn't even "consciously" switch to 3x3 portholes... I just drew them based on what looked correct and allowed me to fit as much detail as possible into cramped areas of the ships. I forgot that there was a standing rule about making big portholes.
Author:  Hood [ July 10th, 2017, 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
The only thing is that bollards and hatches etc. probably are still oversized, so I think there is a limit to accuracy-mania but I do think the smaller portholes look better and also hide the cartoony blue shade, which was becoming a bugbear for me. Probably bridge windows should be slightly smaller too to compensate.

I'm also going to split brown and grey rigging for ropes and radio aerials too (brown/hemp radio aerials look odd to me as antennas even in the early days were wire and thus should be more reflective/metallic (i.e. grey) to my eyes.
Author:  emperor_andreas [ July 11th, 2017, 4:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Last of the supers, Helgoland (1911), Kaiser (1912-13), Konig (1914).
I really like the lines of the rebuilt Verdun! Excellent work!
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