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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 29th, 2018, 2:22 pm
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Joined: May 25th, 2016, 2:05 pm
My entry is still FAR from finished.

[ img ] Next on my work list : St Azia class light cruiser

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 29th, 2018, 2:54 pm
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Joined: May 23rd, 2012, 1:01 pm
Location: Rome - Italy
An excercise in thougth: Koko's LNT loner.

Since the Koko AU history is already well developed and filled until the second half of the 1940s, I decided to indulge in a further speculative scenario for this challenge: What-if the 1933 coup against Morimoto actually succeeds and the Country does not yet descends into dictatorship?
Koko remains faithful to the treaties for a longer time, and in the mid 30's decides to put to scrap the old and obsolete ships of the Yagumo class whith a more advanced and up-to-date unit while still abiding to the 35.000t and 14-inch gun limitations of the 2nd London Naval Treaty. Designers went for an unfiorm secondary battery of dual-purpose 127mm guns and, in an unusual way, dedicated the midship deck between the funnel and aft superstructure to boat and aircraft handling. new 356/50 caliber main guns are puprosely designed for the new ship, capable of firing standard 675kg and 728kg heavy shells at a maximum range of 44.490yards (40.682m) at 43° elevation (an 816kg super-heavy shell was also under consideration).
The ship's design is completed in 1936, shortly after the ratification of LNT2. Laid down by fall 1936, she is launched in 1938 and finally commissioned in 1939. She comes out roughly 1% overweight compared to her design, but everything else turns out as planned. By that time the escalator clause and new 45.000t limit could be called, so there would be no sisters for the brand new ship, which receved the name Kamiyama (sacred mountain).
[ img ]
Kamiyama specifications as built (laid down 1936, launched 1938, completed and commissioned 1939):
-Displacement 35.404 t standard, 41.171 t full load
-LOA 234,95m (770,84ft)
-LWL 227,5m (746,39ft)
-beam 32m (104,99ft)
-mean draft 9m (29,53ft)
-Machinery: 12x Oil firing boilers, 4x geared steam turbines, 170.000 shp, 4 shafts
-Speed: 31,00 kts
-Range: 11.800nm at 15 kts
-Armour: belt 356mm (14'', inclined 15°in), torpedo bulkhead 55mm (2.2'', protective internal bulge 5m on each side) main deck 155mm (6.1''), forecastle deck 30mm (1.2''), quarterdeck 76mm (3''), steering gear box 250mm (9.8''), main turrets face 381mm (15''), main turrets sides, roof and rear 228mm (9''), barbettes 356mm (14''), DP guns hoist 50mm (2''), conning tower 356mm (14'', forward, no aft)
-Armament: 9x 356mm/50 guns (3x3, 100rpg), 16x 127mm/40 DP guns (8x2, 300rpg), 24x 25mm/60 AA-MGs (8x3, 2.000rpg)
-Aircrafts: 2x E8N
-Complement: 1.583

By 1941 the ship would recieve the planned shields for the DP mounts and light AA, plus the full recon airwing and more antenna work. the DP directors were raised to clear the new MG shields.
[ img ]
Kamiyama specifications as of 1941, same as 1939 except:
-Armour: DP guns face, roof, sides, aft 25mm (1''), AA-MGs face, roof, sides, aft 25mm (1'')
-Aircrafts: 2x F1M, 1xE8N

What happens next is the subject of more speculation. Even without its early descent into dictatorship Koko would eventually still ally with Japan by the time of Pearl Harbour? Or something in those years would lead the nation to slowly shift away from its pro-Japan feelings and eventually turn to the Allies? Here are some further what-ifs:

Scenario 1 - Kamiyama in early 1946 as Koko allies with Japan. History eventually leads to defeat.
[ img ]
Kamiyama specifications as of 1946, same as 1939/41 except:
-Armament: 16x 127mm/40 DP guns (8x2, 400rpg), 118x 25mm/60 AA-MGs (30x3, 28x1, 9.000rpg)
-Electronics: Type21 backup air search radar (2x1), Type24 air search radar, Type 33-Kai surface search and backup FC radar (2x1), TypeR1CD surface FC radar (2x1), TypeR12CAD air FC radar (4x1), TypeR6R RDF, standard IFF (2x1)
-Aircrafts: 2x E16A
-Complement: 1.865

Scenario 2 - Kamiyama on V-Day 1945 as Koko allies with the US. The ship escapes the brutal Japanese invasion of the Kokoan mainland and is given a torough refit at Mare Island shipyard in 1943/44.
[ img ]
Kamiyama specifications as of 1946, same as 1939/41 except:
-Armament: 60x 40mm/60 AA-MGs (12x4, 6x2, 2.000rpg), 62x 20mm/70 AA-MGs (17x2, 28x1, 9.000rpg)
-Electronics: SK/CXFA air search radar, SG surface search radar (2x1), 66ACG IFF, Mark40 GFCS, Mark3 FC backup radar, Mark4 air FC radar (4x1), Mark8 surface FC radar (2x1), 66AKJ TDY jammer (2x1), standard DF loop, 66015 TBS (2x1), AS-56/ SPR-1 ECM (2x1)
-Aircrafts: 3x Vought OS2U
-Complement: 1.741

My Worklist
Sources and documentations are the most welcome.

-Koko Kyouwakoku (Republic of Koko)
-Koko Kaiun Yuso Kaisha - KoKaYu Line (Koko AU spinoff)
-Koko - Civil Aviation

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 30th, 2018, 7:10 am
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Joined: June 9th, 2017, 9:48 pm
That last one is indeed a beauty. Well put together, though I'll leave the technical aspect to those more informed than myself.

The shiba does as it pleases.

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 30th, 2018, 1:49 pm
Posts: 2644
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 11:38 pm
Location: Midwest US
I absolutely love the Kokoian superstructures. Few AUs develop a coherent and unique design 'theme' that one might expect from a long-term professional design staff.

Beautifully drawn, as well. The measure 22 attention to detail, with the nearly-horizontal parts of the 127mm shields colored deck blue, is noted.

I can't help but wonder if the midships floatplane would be axed midwar for a forest of medium and light AA.

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 30th, 2018, 5:28 pm
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Joined: May 23rd, 2012, 1:01 pm
Location: Rome - Italy
erik_t wrote: *
I can't help but wonder if the midships floatplane would be axed midwar for a forest of medium and light AA.
I had initially thought about that, but when I realized the standard USN catapult would have still fitted (I had obviously not designed the ship with that hindsight) I just couldn' resist the temptation of having some Kingfishers on board, even if it's a stretch.

My Worklist
Sources and documentations are the most welcome.

-Koko Kyouwakoku (Republic of Koko)
-Koko Kaiun Yuso Kaisha - KoKaYu Line (Koko AU spinoff)
-Koko - Civil Aviation

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 30th, 2018, 6:01 pm
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Joined: December 26th, 2012, 9:36 am
Location: Germany
Hi BB!

A good-looking beastie indeed, and beautifully drawn.

For what it's worth: The USN retained scout planes on its battleships throughout the war, AFAIK, so that looks plausible enough.


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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: May 31st, 2018, 7:30 am
Posts: 3156
Joined: November 17th, 2010, 8:03 am
Location: Corinth, MS USA
Contact: Website, Skype, YouTube
Very nice work, my friend!

[ img ]
MS State Guard - 08 March 2014 - present

The Official IJN Ships & Planes List

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 1st, 2018, 3:25 pm
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Joined: December 15th, 2010, 10:13 pm
Location: Behind you, looking at you with my mustache!
updated my drawings on page 6.

- some color changes
- some armament adjustment
- some small adjustment to text
- adjustment to electronics

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 2nd, 2018, 12:12 pm
Posts: 5953
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:07 am
My entry plays a little loose with history. I had wanted to design a circa-1932 battleship but this wouldn't be possible due to the building holiday, so this is a 1935 design, in effect a precursor to the King George V class to replace some of the Resolution Class ships. My alt-history concession is the 15in gun, basically seeing that nobody else was going to take the 14in calibre seriously the Admiralty pushed ahead with their 15in/45 Mk II project.

Although this looks quite like the KGV, this is a ground-up design but using DB mount secondaries with a 4.7in gun with power loading and a tower superstructure inspired by those on the Nelsons and the later heavy cruisers like Exeter as well as design elements from the Southampton class of the same era. I had thought about a turntable catapult but stuck to the new awarthships layout. Also, having decided to stick with a unit machinery layout the two funnels dictated the layout would heavily resemble KGV. In mu AU, the KGV would in effect be repeats of this class but perhaps with 4.5in secondaries instead of 4.7in and an extra inch on the belt.

Iron Duke Class

[ img ]
HMS Benbow, as completed 1938

[ img ]
HMS Iron Duke, September 1942

[ img ]
HMS Centurion, July 1944

[ img ]
HMS Monarch, September 1945

HMS Iron Duke, commissioned September 1938
HMS Benbow, commissioned December 1938
HMS Centurion, commissioned March 1939
HMS Monarch, commissioned August 1939

35,000 tons (standard)

707 ft (oa), 700 ft (wl) long, 103 ft beam, 28 ft draught (normal load)

3x3 15in/45 Mk.II (100 prg)
10x2 4.7in/45 Mk.X (400 rpg) in BD Mk.II turrets
4x8 2pdr pom-poms (1,000 rpg)
2x4 0.5in Vickers machine-guns
4x Supermarine Walrus I seaplanes
[by 1942 AA armament of 5x8 & 2x4 2pdr and 15x1 20mm, by 1944 7x8 & 2x4 2pdr and 6x2 & 33x1 20mm, by 1945 5x8 & 2x4 2pdr and 15x1 40mm 'Boffin' and 25x1 20mm]

Two main directors, two secondary HA/LA directors, four HACS
[by 1942 Type 281 air-search, Type 271 surface-search, six Type 282 gunnery (pom-poms), Type 284 gunnery (main directors) and Type 285 gunnery (secondaries & HACS). By 1944 Type 284 replaced by Type 274 and Type 283 replaced Type 282. By 1945 HACS replaced by HADT.

Main belt: 14in tapering to 5.5in at bottom
Deck: 5-6in (2.5in forward, 4.5in over steering gear)
Main Turrets: 12-9in
Barbettes: 12in
Secondary Turrets: 1-0.5in
Bulkheads: 10-12in
Conning Tower: 4-3in
Torpedo Defence: 3-layer (air/liquid/air sandwich), totalling 1.5in thickness

100,000shp geared turbines
28kts max speed
Range 15,500nm at 10kts

Hood's Worklist
1952 Carrier
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Never-Were British Aircraft

Last edited by Hood on June 3rd, 2018, 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post subject: Re: Fast battleship challenge!Posted: June 2nd, 2018, 3:51 pm
Posts: 6
Joined: November 11th, 2015, 2:15 pm
From an alternate universe, where the Kingdom of Tet Satou exists on an archipelago roughly the size of the Philippines, located in the general vicinity of the (real-world) Carolines and Gilberts; the nation rapidly industrialized following Commodore Perry's opening of Japan in 1854 and began building up a small, but powerful navy to deter any future attempts at imperialism or colonialism, initially by the Western powers:

"When the Empire of Japan announced its intentions to withdraw from the Treaty system effective with the expiration of the First London Treaty, it occasioned the first truly serious consideration of building new capital ships since the Protector-class battleships and Alacrity-class battlecruisers of 1919. Though both were considered likely to be effective against all known threats, the idea of Japan restarting the building race forced the TS Navy to start building more modern capital ships lest the Japanese be able to overwhelm them with numbers; after all, beyond the three Protectors and three Alacrities, the TSN's capital fleet consisted of the three elderly Vigilant-class semi-dreadnoughts of 1906, which had been converted for coastal warfare, and the three antediluvian Stalwart-class pre-dreadnoughts of 1896, still held in reserve....

"The requirements were daunting--the ships would have to be at least as fast as Alacrity had been, while at least as heavily armed as Protector, plus they had to have much more in the way of anti-aircraft armament while also being protected against the new heavy shell Japan had introduced for the Nagato-class battleships. (In a failure shared with the United States, the TS Navy's intelligence department believed that future Japanese battleships would be armed with the 16.1"/45 gun developed for the Nagatos and be in the 45,000 ton range; nothing comparable to the actual Yamato class was ever considered.) Moreover, the ships would be required to meet these figures without exceeding the limits of the Second London Naval Treaty; while the Kingdom had never been a party to any of the Naval Treaties, it was felt that failing to abide by Treaty limitations would be politically unacceptable for a nation that still had to source its capital ship-scale guns and armor from overseas....

"Finally, though, when news came at the start of April [1938] that the United States, Britain, and France had elected to invoke the tonnage escalator clause of the Second London Treaty. The extra ten thousand tons now permissible resolved the issue of combining high speed, heavy armor, and the full twelve-gun armament in a single hull; the VII series of designs, originally scuttled by the displacement limit, were now looking quite attractive. VII-B, in particular, seemed a very viable candidate, with the compact three-turret main battery arrangement and an immune zone against Nagato's new shells estimated at 14,500 yards, with immunity between 20,000 and 34,500 yards....

"While the US Navy initially resisted the TS Navy's approaches, a sufficient financial inducement finally persuaded the US BuOrd to complete design and testing work on both the 14"/50 Mark B gun and the four-gun turret originally intended for the US North Carolina-class battleships, so long as construction of the guns would not have to be done by the US Naval Gun Factory; the guns, instead, were constructed entirely by Bethlehem. (Early US Navy efforts to persuade the TS Navy to instead adopt the 16"/45 Mark 6 gun used in both the North Carolina and South Dakota classes were rebuffed on logistical grounds; the TSN had spent a large amount of scarce funding to build a factory for domestic production of 14" ammunition just a few years before, and was uninterested in returning to being dependent on purchasing ammunition from American suppliers.) Not having to significantly alter the VII-B design allowed for time to be saved, and the three hulls were laid down at the TS Naval Shipyard in November of 1938, with delivery expected in the first half of 1942...."

--Quoted from Battleships of the Kingdom of Tet Satou, by Norman Friedman

[ img ]

Sentinel, Security, Selfless, Tet Satou Treaty fast battleship laid down 1938 (Engine 1942)

41,721 t light; 44,340 t standard; 47,592 t normal; 50,194 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(725.39 ft / 700.00 ft) x 120.00 ft x (30.00 / 31.37 ft)
(221.10 m / 213.36 m) x 36.58 m x (9.14 / 9.56 m)

12 - 14.00" / 356 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 135 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1937 Model
3 x 4-gun mounts on centreline ends, majority forward
1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 55.18lbs / 25.03kg shells, 450 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1932 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
1 x Twin mount on centreline forward
1 double raised mount
1 x Twin mount on centreline aft
1 raised mount
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 56.3 cal guns - 1.99lbs / 0.90kg shells, 2,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1934 Model
4 x Quad mounts on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 70.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 2,500 per gun
Machine guns in deck mounts, 1939 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 19,140 lbs / 8,682 kg

- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
Main Belt inclined 19.00 degrees (positive = in)

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Additional damage containing bulkheads:
4.00" / 102 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 28.72 ft / 8.75 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 100.00 ft / 30.48 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 18.0" / 457 mm 9.50" / 241 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - 2.00" / 51 mm
5th: 2.00" / 51 mm - 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 7.00" / 178 mm
Forecastle: 0.00" / 0 mm Quarter deck: 3.00" / 76 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 128,877 shp / 96,142 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,854 tons

1,610 - 2,094

£21.624 million / $86.497 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4,268 tons, 9.0 %
- Guns: 4,268 tons, 9.0 %
Armour: 17,464 tons, 36.7 %
- Belts: 4,246 tons, 8.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,934 tons, 4.1 %
- Armament: 3,341 tons, 7.0 %
- Armour Deck: 7,434 tons, 15.6 %
- Conning Tower: 509 tons, 1.1 %
Machinery: 3,367 tons, 7.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,873 tons, 33.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,871 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 750 tons, 1.6 %
- Above deck: 750 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
85,545 lbs / 38,803 Kg = 62.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 16.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.30
Metacentric height 10.5 ft / 3.2 m
Roll period: 15.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a straight bulbous bow and small transom stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.661 / 0.667
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.84 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 33.00 ft / 10.06 m, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 27.00 ft / 8.23 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 24.38 ft / 7.43 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 182.7 %
Waterplane Area: 66,696 Square feet or 6,196 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 208 lbs/sq ft or 1,018 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room

(Also... hi, guys! First time posting on the forum, though those on the Discord will probably recognize me from having been doing ships over there for probably six months or so now. Thanks go to everyone over there who beat me over the head with the flaws of those earlier ships--hopefully, I've now got the art failures out of the way and just have it down to stuff that could be seen as in-universe design errors to be rectified in the next class of ships...)

Last edited by rdfox76 on June 5th, 2018, 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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