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Tempest
Post subject: Imperial German Navy Research ThreadPosted: June 29th, 2016, 7:37 am
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Hello guys, I'm hoping someone has photos or a link to photos of the stern below the waterline, specifically the propellers, the skegs, and rudder area.

I have photos of Bayern capsized, although they have been very useful they aren't at a very good angle. Photos prior to launching would be great.

Thanks guys.

Tempest.

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Last edited by Tempest on June 1st, 2017, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Request for photos on SMS Baden or even BayernPosted: June 29th, 2016, 1:46 pm
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http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index. ... ern-baden/


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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: Request for photos on SMS Baden or even BayernPosted: July 1st, 2016, 4:39 pm
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Tempest wrote:
Hello guys, I'm hoping someone has photos or a link to photos of the stern below the waterline, specifically the propellers, the skegs, and rudder area.
[ img ]


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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Request for photos on SMS Baden or even BayernPosted: July 7th, 2016, 9:26 pm
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Thanks :)

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Request for photos on SMS Baden or even BayernPosted: June 1st, 2017, 9:12 pm
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This von Der Tan undergoing sea trials

[ img ]

Colourised

[ img ]


This is Goeben undergoing trials, note the bowspirit and sternspirit.

[ img ]


This is Bayern in 1915 undergoing trials, he only has a sternspirit
[ img ]


From what I can tell battleships and battlecruisers had these fitted during trials, I am beginning to wonder if they have anything to do with speed trials over a measured distance, with bowspirit and sternspirit used to aid measuring somehow.

1) Does anyone know why they were fitted?
2) Does anyone know if the pennants are merchant marine or something to do with trials, there appears to be two different ones amongst the photos, could they be shipyard related?
3) Does anyone know what colours they were?
4) During trials, the merchant flag would be flown if I remember rightly, is that so?

I hope anyone can help, thanks guys.

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Colombamike
Post subject: Re: Request for photos on SMS Baden or even BayernPosted: June 4th, 2017, 10:27 pm
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Tempest wrote: *
From what I can tell battleships and battlecruisers had these fitted during trials, I am beginning to wonder if they have anything to do with speed trials over a measured distance, with bowspirit and sternspirit used to aid measuring somehow.
1) Does anyone know why they were fitted?
Probably to check ship-speed (& wind ?) & compare them with horsepower-machinery & draught.
Think "deep-water mile trial at Neukrug" => for the Konig class battleship
Think "Belt mile trial" => for the Bayern class battleship
For the Derfflinger class battlecruiser, the usual deep water mile at neukrug was considered unsafe in war and the 115ft deep mile was used instead.
For Hindenburg battlecruiser, the 10 may 1917 trial on the belt mile (26,6 knots & 9 meters draught) were considered equal to 28,5 knots at normal displacement at deep water

For german warships, speed & horsepower data were obtained on a mile run.
Tempest wrote: *
2) Does anyone know if the pennants are merchant marine or something to do with trials, there appears to be two different ones amongst the photos, could they be shipyard related?
Probably merchant flag & shipyard flag
Tempest wrote: *
3) Does anyone know what colours they were?
I don't know (for the moment :D )
Tempest wrote: *
4) During trials, the merchant flag would be flown if I remember rightly, is that so?
Yes, until the ship was formally commissioned I think

Others stuffs about german-ships trials :
- speed trials for Derfflinger and Lutzow could only be carried out in shallower water, they would be about 2 knots less than a deep sea trial.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/93825?seq=1 ... b_contents
http://hydrocompinc.com/library/white-papers
http://www.learnerstv.com/video/Free-vi ... eering.htm
very interesting
http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-091.htm

The original discussion is entailed in the K-office papers responding to the trials conducted under peacetime and wartime rules. In fact, the vast difference in speed achieved by these trials are based on three major differences:

[1] pre-war trials were run at the deep water measured mile off the North Sea island of Borkum. When the war made save trial conditions impossible, the wartime trials were conducted at Neukrug close to the Eckernförde Bay in the confined waters at the western Baltic Sea. The measured mile there had two calibrated ranges, one at 24 to 25m waterdepth, the other at 34 to 35m waterdepth. The original range at Borkum had a waterdepth in excess of 90m.

[2] the amount of power squeeched out from the engines in prewartimes was following the praxis "as much as possible without endangering the engines". This was also helped with by the aviability of high quality Whelsch steaming coal. In wartimes, domestic coal had to be used instead and the trial conditions were reduced to deliberately reduce the poweroutput to 120% in overload conditions, even while the engines were designed with higher overload capacities.

[3] During peacetime trials the displacement was somehow different than in wartime trials, which required a full crew complement and full ammunition and provisions (but not full fuel) to be carried. Thus the displacement was in part significantly larger in wartime trials.


In fact, when You compare pre-war and wartime trial speed results the differences are approaching the 2kts figure. SMS KAISER in her prewar trials achieved a speed of 23.6 kts off Borkum but the faster (in service) SMS KÖNIG achieved just over 21.5kts off Neukrug in their respective wartime trial conditions.
Similarely, the differences between SMS SEYDLITZ from prewar trials and SMS DERFFLINGER in her wartrials. The K-office recalculated the speed of DERFFLINGER in deep water following calibrations done with MOLTKE at Neukrug to be 28.0kts at 76,000 SHP.
The late war trials conducted with the battleship SMS BADEN off Neukrug were done in the 34m and the 24m range and again the 24m range yielded less speed than the 34m range. K-office consequently recalculated the speed of SMS BADEN in deep water from 22.08kts at full load and 34m waterdepth (=21.78kts at 24m) to 24.0 kts at 54,000 SHP if they had been done at the proper deep water trial range off Borkum.

Data from this primary source: Werft F. Seehahn, "Für die Prüfung des Schlachtschiffes Baden" (1916).

As mentioned previously calibration runs with MOLTKE in deep and shallow measured miles and with BADEN in shallow and very shallow measured miles have shown the relationship.
K-office notes that for the given shiplength the depth of the measured mile off Neukrug was not sufficient to yield correct speed results, if I remember correctly, it was said that beginning with 18 kts there is a light and at 21 kts a stronger increase in power required to achieve any given speed. The ~38,000SHP runs compared to the 54,000 SHP runs showed a very low increase in speed (from 21.548 kts at 37,430 SHP to 22.301 kts at 52,815 SHP) with more than 41% more power added. This represents an extreme power increase by x^10 instead of the expected x^5 to x^6 at this speed. When You plot the power notions, you can see where the hump set´s in. It´s at about 18 kts, just as calculated by K-office. The effect was more pronounced in 25m than in 35m and of course more pronounced at lighter displacements than with heavier ones (less speed of course). K-office required measured miles in excess of 70m water depth for the BAYERN-class ships with a length of ca. 180m to give exact speed trial results.

The Japanese found something similar, Haguro ran her trials at Mie on December 17, 1928 in 60 meters of water(197 feet) and reached 34.6 knots at full power. She ran the trials again at Koshikijima four days later in 180 meters of water(590 feet) and achieved 35.789 knots at full and 36.185 at overload.


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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Imperial German Navy Research ThreadPosted: June 5th, 2017, 11:26 pm
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Thanks Colombamike, very interesting information.

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Imperial German Navy Research ThreadPosted: June 6th, 2017, 1:37 pm
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I'm wondering if the pennants could be international maritime signal flags
[ img ]

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Tempest
Post subject: Re: Imperial German Navy Research ThreadPosted: June 12th, 2017, 2:43 am
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I have another question, well confirmation really from you guys. I'm working on the different time frames for the drawings of Moltke (and Goeben) and I've noticed that the bridge structure differed from as built (1911) until 1913. I had no idea this happened and thought the bridge remained the same throughout his career. From what I can tell, the original bridge structure was identical to Goeben's until 1913. There is no mention of this anywhere, in none of the books I have or any of the websites I have visited. :shock:

[ img ]
Moltke at Hampton Roads circa 8 June 1912

[ img ]
Moored in the Hudson River, New York, 9-13 June 1912

[ img ]
Date and location unknown, pre-Jutland

[ img ]
Date and location unknown, pre-Jutland

[ img ]
Goeben for comparison


So I just want you guys to compare the photos and confirm my research or call me a raving lunatic. :lol:

If anyone one has any information on the modification dates I will be grateful. :)

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Garlicdesign
Post subject: Re: Imperial German Navy Research ThreadPosted: June 12th, 2017, 3:50 am
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Hi Tempest

I always thought Moltke was completed with the later bridge, never looked so closely on the very early photographs. She must have been refitted just after she returned from the US. Moltke was flagship scouting forces from 1912 to 1914, so it seems the most educated of guesses that she received the enlargened flag bridge in preparation for this duty.

Greetings
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