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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 10th, 2019, 12:11 pm
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emperor_andreas wrote: *
Very nice work!
Coming from you, it's sort of a medal of honour!... I just don't know if the transmission cables are matching to the era of this ship. I simply don't know how many cables were needed for morse transmission and for verbal transmission between the ship and the port authorities. The big overhead line drawn I intend it to be a telephone line linking the bridge in the forward superstructure to the responsible guys aft, mainly those in charge of the mechanical parts (i.e. engine room). When I look at any warship of that time, I feel puzzled by the "spaghetti" of dozens of different lines for transmission!...


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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 10th, 2019, 8:52 pm
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Yes, rigging is the bane of a lot of artists...hence why I don't draw sailing ships. :lol:

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 11th, 2019, 10:45 pm
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emperor_andreas wrote: *
Yes, rigging is the bane of a lot of artists...hence why I don't draw sailing ships. :lol:
I didn't mention the rigging of the ships (masts and their supporting and working cables), I refered to the communication cables and wires, that's entirely different.


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 12th, 2019, 5:57 pm
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In March 1939, the carrier "Prinz Heinrich von Preussen" was comissioned to the DKM as the first carrier of Germany's history. It was a sensation, then, since most of the civil society and also most military had never seen such a ship. Only those occasionally visiting Portsmouth/UK saw one or two of the huge ships of the Royal Navy, which had several of them since long. After the first trials in the Baltic sea, the responsible people in the OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht = General staff of the German armed forces) soon saw the advantages of these kind of ships and since there existed now "navalized" versions of some airplane models (Junkers Ju 87 "Stuka" dive bomber and Messerschmitt Bf 109 T mainly), voices began to be heared at the OKM (Oberkommando der Marine = General staff of the German navy) that one carrier alone would not be enough and that the works at "Graf von Zeppelin" were far behind schedule awaiting the results of the operations of "Prinz Heinrich". The versatility of a fleet around a carrier found a rapid growing number of enthusiasts within not only the DKM but the government itself, supported by an enormous public enthusiasm. "Wir sind wieder wer!" was the "street parole" of the day... ("We are somebody again" meaning sort of "we Germans can be proud of ourselves again". In reality, this was the saying after Germany won the first football (soccer) world championship after WWII...).

The strong movement around the theme "aircraft carrier" led to the government to allow a second conversion of an ex-merchant ship with a hull long and wide enough to be converted rapidly, while the works at the "Von Zeppelin" were resumed, with plenty of changes to be calculated and implemented. The German government allowed the DKM to buy one of the bigger ships of the OPDR line (the "Santa Cruz"), make an agreement with the Swedish Göteborg yard already working on other projects for the DKM, to make the heavy works of adapting the ship according to what had been done with the "Prinz Heinrich" and this new CVE ("escort carrier", in German naval language "Begleit-Flugzeugträger", meaning it would be number two in a fleet commanded by a bigger carrier) was from the birth of the project on intended to carry two "short squadrons" ("kurze Staffeln") of ten airplanes each, most likely two Ju 87 "Stuka" squadrons with a total of some 24 units counting here the extra four units for the Gruppenkommandant (group leader) and his aide (IA in German military jargon) and two units in reserve.

The new carrier should see its conversion starting by October 1939 latest to be comissioned 18 months later, by Apriul or May 1941 Installing the radar units at a German yard (for secrecy reasons) should not take longer than six weeks since all the pre-installation works would have been done at the yard. It would be christened "Otto Lilienthal" and condition was to have a propulsion strong enough to allow the carrier to reach at least 28 knots in cruise speed to be able to follow the other ships of the fleet it would belong to in future.

[ img ]

FT means in short "Flugzeugträger" of aircraft carrier.

This unit had its hull lengthened with two sections of 12.5 meter each and a funnel tilted to starbord some 30 degrees to allow for more room on the deck and was lightly armed, since the entire protection would be done by all the fleet escorting ships (Cruisers and destroyers mainly). It had a mostly closed hangar on the level below the deck and two lifts. One new developed catapult by Henschel was installed in front and this new unit allowed a much quicker succession of launching the aircraft.

The two "Hohentwiel" radar sets were used by two range finder units, one directed foward, the other one to the rear, each one of them covering 225º thus overlapping their screening ability. One third unit was installed for navigational purposes only.

The propulsion is made by the means of four Diesel engines: 4 x MAN 9MZ95/65 each one coupled to a electric generator producing 11.800 kW. Propulsion itself is made by an electric motor of Siemens producing up to 45.000 kW, driving the ship's only shaft with a huge four bladed, variable pitch screw of 3,65 meter of diameter, allowing for a max speed of 31.5 knots and a continuous speed of 28 knots. For the electrical systems and the hydraulics, a seven cylinder MAN power generator M7Z 30/44 was used, producing a power of up to 2.375 kW.


Last edited by Cargil48 on February 14th, 2019, 1:26 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 12th, 2019, 11:18 pm
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The more than 8.500 page views in barely one month give me enthusiasm to explain further my AU described here. Ships, military and other equiipmnet, all that can be drawn. My aim, however, and as already said, is to explain the context I'd like to have seen Germany, my family's land of origin, though not mine, take from 1935 on. I think this explains somewhat the big number of pageviews.

Continuing: By 1939, Germany had made several important agreements, mainly of trade (genre of the EFTA put together after WW II in the real world), since the civil members of the government, first of all Konrad Adenauer, at the time minster of the internal affairs (Innenminister) came to the conclusion that the only way to end the misery of the jobless society of those times was to implement industrial growth. One of Adenauer's main key personality of his private inner circle was an economicist of 42 years of age, Ludwig Ehrhardt, a brilliant man having made his Ph.D. with a dissertation about modern economics after the worldwide crash of 1929, following the ideas of people like Frank Oppenheimer, Carl Friedrich Goerdeler and Otto Ohlendorf, now deputy secretary of state in the Reichsministerium für Wirtschaft (Ministry of Commerce). And contrary to the Lebensraum fixed idea of the nazis (land to live) suggesting Germany was too small for its population, thus justifying the anexation of Austria and Chekoslovakia, a designated goal for Hitler, Adenauer and his inner circle followed the idea of state sponsored investments and free trade among similar minded states, arguing that trade of commercial and industrial goods would by itself create jobs, while putting money into circulation in the market (a combined social-liberal political line). And without a strong Wirtschaft ("economics, stupid!"...) no strong state could ever be financed for all its expenses. Including here its armed forces. This is the link of the German Kriegsmarine with the general economy of Germany and the reason for my somewhat detailed information about a Germany I'd like to have been, in those days....

Continuing the social and political side: By 1939 the German government had felt the necessity to implement sort of a "soft dictatorship". The German government and part of the German military had seen in Spain, through the involvement of the "Legion Condor", what a bloody civil war could lead to. The inner German events which took place in 1935, after the coup against the nazis, were not at all comparable to what the Germans witnessed in Spain. This led to von Witzleben, the actual German chancellor, and the military top brass, to an unofficial deal to not let happen at all cost that such events would ever take place in Germany. The influence of the social party and also of the communists was still being felt, and after the fall of Reinhard Heydrich, the bloody chief of the SD (secret information service) and the major rival of Admiral Canaris of the Abwehr (counter espionnage), these two sides began to feel sort of a liberty of movements, mainly on the worker's union side, trying to repeat the "status quo" existing during the Weimar Republik. These events had led to chancellor von Witzleben making sort of an "institucional revolution", with the backing of the military, taking in late 1935 the Reichstag (German parliament) and imposing "martial law" for six weeks, during which all political activities were suspended. During this period, the side of von Witzleben formed a new party, the Neue Deutsche Sozial-Demokratische Partei", in short DSP ("new German social democratic party"), giving the maximum attention possible to the social welfare without, however, taking any step to frighten the middle and upper classes, regarded as essential to make Germany a leading industrial nation, to compete with the UK, France and the USA on a peaceful way. To every politician trying to argue against, von Witzleben replied in his firm way of speaking: "We lost WWI because of the lack of competivity on the industrial side, all other arguments are nonsense! And my government won't let the communist virus infect our country, thus we have to ban also de socialist movements, which are the ice breakers to the communists! Social welfare is one thing, socialism another completely different and we've seen to which counter reaction that leads to! Period!"

This is why the new German government was quick to sign the A.G.N.A. and succesively trade and cooperation agreements with several countries of Middle and Northern Europe. With Sweden and Finland cooperation agreements were made regarding mainly naval and aviation (Sweden) and infantry and aviation equipment (Finland), as well as supplying refined fuels for their respective armed forces. The same applied also to Norway, a country to which several transport floatplanes were sold, as well as fuels. With Austria and Checoslovakia industry agreements were on top of the list, mainly guns and military vehicles from the former and cooperation on airplane design and production with the latter.

Two countries asked Berlin for special agreements, in respect of problems both felt on their security levels: The Netherlands which saw their East India territories more and more threatened by Japan and Finland, which felt a growing pressure from the part of the Soviet Union. With both nations Berlin signed secret agreements regarding assistance should any threat get real on this level. Especially The Netherlands got assurance of naval assistance since Germany was already a client of the Dutch regarding oil products coming from Sumatra and Borneo. The interest in maintaining a "statu quo" in this respect was on both sides. Finland had another weight, since Berlin knew that Moscow looked very intensively not only to Finland but also to the three Baltic countries between Finland and East Prussia. This threat seemed even more important to Berlin for obvious reasons. Moscow could not forget nor accept the defeat of its Spanish friends at the hands of Franco's troops heavily assisted by Germany's "Legion Condor", nor the total banning of the communist party in Germany. Berlin was fully aware that sooner or later some event would take place on the part of the soviets and began in the spring of 1939 to make contingency plans which obviously included the "Kriegsmarine".

PS: Thanks to all who have so far taken their time to have a view on these pages. I'm trying to give you something interesting and plausible. It depends on your interest if and how far I continue with this account. What I have written already for myself is a German involvement in the "Winter War", assisting Finland, on one side, and on the other side Germany assisting The Netherlands in securing their overseas possessions in East India and the consequences that had. Obviously involving the "Kriegsmarine".


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 17th, 2019, 12:44 pm
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Germany's Kriegsmarine needed badly after 1935 fast small attack and defense ships, the famous Schnellboote. Boats around 35 to 50 meter of length and some 100 to 250 tons of displacement and newly developped Diesel engines from Mercedes/Maybach which propelled these small boats over 40 knots and some 700 sm of combat radius (with some reserve Diesel fuel barrels aboard). These new engines from Mercedes/maybach were a novelty in the aspect that they were (comparatively) fast turning, reaching over 2.000 rpm when full speed was needed. It was the MB 500 series, part of which were based on the design of the DB 600 series for aircraft (these however working with high octane fuels).

The Schnellboote had a quick success since they based mainly on the experience gained during WWI but now with new techniques and new materials. The hulls were made of composite materials (aluminium for the hull's frames and beams with a sandwich of nordic pine wood and steel for the different platings and bulkheads).

[ img ]

The first new class built from 1936 on was the S-100 class. 32,7 meters long and with a combat weight displacement of 100 tons. It had a shallow draught of slightly less than 1,5 meter which gave theswe boats an extraordinary seaworthiness near the coasts. They were also built to be nearly watertight to be able to withstand bigger waves even if these passed head on over the ship. The initially installed engines were the MB 500, a V12 Diesel engine with 66,4 liter displacement and a power of 950 shp maximum and 700 shp continuous, allowing for a speed of 37,8 knots. These engines, of which three were instralled on each ship, each one driving its own shaft, had a weight of 2 tonnes, allowing for a quite low centre of gravity of the boats, which contributed enormously to their stability in rough seas.

These initial boats, of which 42 were ordered at Lürssen-Weegesack after the initial trials of the DKM, had a complement of 26 men under normal circumstances (the captain, his first officer, the engineer supervising mainly the engines and the rest were enlisted seamen). After experimenting with the S-1, the yard made several improvements to the design. Small rudders added on either side of the main rudder could be angled outboard to 30 degrees, creating at high speed what is known as the Lürssen Effect This drew in an "air pocket" slightly behind the screws, increasing their efficiency, reducing the stern wave and keeping the boat at a nearly horizontal attitude". This was an important innovation as the horizontal attitude lifted the stern, allowing even greater speeds, and the reduced stern wave made S-boats harder to see, especially at night.

This new class of S-boats quickly established itself as a separate breed within the DKM, since they approached bad sea conditions in a way more comparable to a submarine than a surface vessel... and approached enemy ships in a way which was a mix of "hit and run" and "the rabbit run", constantly changing headings at high speed making it very hard for the ennemy to hit them.

The S-Boats carried 2 × 53.3 cm torpedo tubes built into the front sides of the hulls closed with a near watertight front door and had a hydraulically assisted reload mechanism for two supplement torpedoes. They were equipped also with two single AA 20mm cannons, one in the bow and the other one in the stern of the hulls.

(To be continued)


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Cargil48
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 17th, 2019, 10:34 pm
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New class to be discussed, to allow us to have several types of ships in progress (and the events which led to them):

Although the Leipzigclass light cruisers were in the early 40s capable ships, they were rapidly being outdated. The events mainly after Pearl Harbor showed that the new flagships were the aircraft carriers and capable escorting cruisers and destroyers to combat any threat the enemy could pose. Even the "big stuff", the battleships, were being questioned by the admiralities of several navies, because the war has shifted rapidly from classic battles at sea to the conquest of land and its resources. Oil began its reign and indirectly led to this switch in naval strategies.

Germany itself had seen in the early 40s a tremendous change in its role in Europe, due to the Soviet attack on Finland, in the so-called "Winter War", and the events which followed this action and due to cooperation agreements on several levels, including military, with Finland and The Netherlands, saw itself involved in war scenarios it never dreamed of at the end of the decade of the 30s... But this aspect will (maybe...) be dealt with in a separate thread.

Now, Germany's marine needed very fast capable escorting ships of medium size to escort the three aircraft carriers meanwhile in service: "Prinz Heinrich", "Otto Lilienthal" and "Graf Zeppelin" and their heavy escorts, the battleships and the heavy cruisers. The demand was now for light cruisers (between 8.000 and 10.000 tons displacement combat ready), fast (over 32 knots constant speed) and especially taking full advantage of the new technology which in those years began to rule the firepower of ships: radar and sonar. Radar for navigation in conditions of bad visibility and radar for screening the area around the ship up to some 80 to 100 km and detecting targets within that range and, most of all, control the fire of the different artillery weapons carried aboard: designating a target to the respective gun's crew and providing details about position and distance. In the case of AA artillery, height as well. In this field the existing cruisers were all completely outdated, and the most capable ones were being modernized with the new electronic sensors and calculation techniques but that costed time and was complex due to the labirynthical internal layout of most ships in use, then. A new design was asked, new from the blank sheet on.

The design I am working on, looks at present like this:

[ img ]

What do you think of it, will it be capable of being selected by the German Kriegsmarine? They need six to eight of these ships, it's a heck of an order being placed...

Revised version after the comments below for which I thank the respective authors. The length of the bow and the stern parts have been augmented and the type of guns reduced. I will however rethink over the radar units and the gunnery they are supposed to feed with data... and make a special paragraph here later to detail my thoughts.

[ img ]


Last edited by Cargil48 on February 18th, 2019, 10:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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emperor_andreas
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 17th, 2019, 10:44 pm
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I honestly like what I'm seeing thus far!

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 17th, 2019, 10:51 pm
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Well, they would certainly not order the ship as drawn now, as there are quite some issues with it :P

First of all, I count 5 different gun calibers, each requiring separate fire control, spotting, training and logistics. The fire control would be hard pressed to do it's job, as most antenna's are blocked by at least one other system.
I would also have to dive into the workings of your powerplant, but I am certain about one thing: as drawn, your ship looks extremely blocky with an very short stern and even an filled up bow. Especially that bow I cannot find reason for the bulbous section, such a shape would only increase slamming in heavy weather in my opinion.

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Kannevets
Post subject: Re: My AU German navyPosted: February 18th, 2019, 1:32 am
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In addition to ace's comments, I'd like to point out that even in the late stages of World War Two (1945), the Flakgerat 58 was only an experimental weapon, and did not even have a functioning prototype.

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