Shipbucket

My Alternative first big gun battleship still the same displacement, date, main guns (well hopefully super firing, at least later on after modification).
its not finished but would anybody like to point out any problems before I finish all the pixels neatly ?
Thanks JSB






Dreadnought 2, GB BB laid down 1905

Displacement:
16,951 t light; 17,888 t standard; 19,469 t normal; 20,733 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(527.00 ft / 527.00 ft) x 82.00 ft x (27.00 / 28.42 ft)
(160.63 m / 160.63 m) x 24.99 m x (8.23 / 8.66 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 45.0 cal guns - 849.99lbs / 385.55kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1905 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
8 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1905 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
4 - 4.70" / 119 mm 45.0 cal guns - 52.36lbs / 23.75kg shells, 300 per gun
Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1905 Model
4 x Single mounts on centreline, evenly spread
4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,369 lbs / 3,343 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 368.90 ft / 112.44 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 158.08 ft / 48.18 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 368.90 ft / 112.44 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
2.00" / 51 mm 368.90 ft / 112.44 m 24.86 ft / 7.58 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 60.00 ft / 18.29 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 11.0" / 279 mm
2nd: 3.00" / 76 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 3.00" / 76 mm - 4.00" / 102 mm

- Armoured deck - single deck:
For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
Forecastle: 0.75" / 19 mm Quarter deck: 0.75" / 19 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 11.00" / 279 mm, Aft 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 34,244 shp / 25,546 Kw = 22.24 kts
Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,845 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
823 - 1,071

Cost:
£1.684 million / $6.734 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,360 tons, 7.0 %
- Guns: 1,360 tons, 7.0 %
Armour: 6,735 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 2,741 tons, 14.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 679 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 1,542 tons, 7.9 %
- Armour Deck: 1,539 tons, 7.9 %
- Conning Towers: 234 tons, 1.2 %
Machinery: 2,854 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,802 tons, 29.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,518 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.0 %
- On freeboard deck: 100 tons
- Above deck: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
22,376 lbs / 10,149 Kg = 25.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
Roll period: 15.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.584 / 0.591
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.96 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forward deck: 20.00 %, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m, 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Aft deck: 50.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m, 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
- Average freeboard: 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 110.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.3 %
Waterplane Area: 31,136 Square feet or 2,893 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 784 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.53
- Overall: 1.04
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Adequate accommodation and workspace room

Four issues: why is there a considerable, but wholly un-utilized space between X and Y turrets? I see no reason or logic to have that so. That sorry little stump of a main mast you've got. Well, it's utterly useless. Better invest in a thorough tripod with a secondary FC platform! About equal height to the foremast. Also, while the RN did stack ships' boats, they never stacked same or similar-sized boats the way you have. That ought to be changed. Also, you may want to consider changing the color of the steam pinnaces. When I drew the Victorian ships' boat sheet, I basically used a base color, often used by the RN in those days, but the hull color never stayed that way.
Finally, your CT looks, for lack of a better word, weird. It looks wholly un-British and doesn't confirm to anything that the RN in those days (ca.1904/06) even considered. Here my advice is to revert to Dreadnought's original bridge layout. Yours is simply not up to snuff here.
Your ambition here is commendable and the result for a newbie is quite impressive, but to make it believable and, so to speak, " Picture Perfect" I believe you need to be much more thorough in your approach. If nothing else, Jabba's magnificent original deserves that!
Best of luck, and let me know if I can be of further help!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Thanks for the feedback, xy - er was going to put them on one level then changed my mind when my spring sharp said weight was ok (and got lazy )
yes the mast looks c*** but its nearly the same hight as the real one (just more superstructure/less mast) and it will have to be low or very high due to the funnels.
the boats are cut from a real life ship ?(Erin ,by Jabba )
and the bridge is trying to subconsciously become a queen ann's ! (will change it and yes sorry to Jabba for all the damage im doing to him excellent work, I hope my final effort will not be to bad)
JSB

I seem to remember the Erin, and I never got to make that remark to ol' good Jabba about the proper boat stowage. As for the mast, compare the St Vincent class, for instance, for mast height. The mast doesn't necessarily need to be low. One solution would be to restore Dreadnought's "reversed" mast and altogether delete the mainmast.

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Interesting idea. I once played around with alternate Dreadnought configurations. I seem to remember doing a shorter and less beamy 'Dreadnought light' with only A, X & Y turrets and also a stretched version with an all-centred A, P, X & Y configuration, but I can't find the drawings :-/

The omission of wing turrets on your design would in theory mean that the beam could be slightly narrower than the original Dreadnought, which would create a more streamlined hull. Stability would need to be considered though, as the superfiring turrets would shift the centre of gravity. I'm no naval engineer though, maybe others could comment on this...

Good work though, It's nice to see a new artist experimenting with real battleship designs of an appropriate era (as opposed to the 1000-foot, 20" gun, 240 VLS cell USN super laser battleship space-cruiser FTW bullshit that seems to perpetually pop up in the forums).

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Jabba's Worklist

Yes, Jabba, you could narrow the beam down to 78 ft, but, as it stands now, I'd not do that. 82ft is, in a sense narrow enough.

- Besides - we're eagerly awaiting how the suggestions will fit in place!

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

ok my next version.

The bridge is a lion ish (good space /hight with CT at front that can look over 'b' , may be to 'good' am I still to queens ann )

Went with a small solid stern CT with platform on top (is platform to big ?)

What do you think of 12 x 4.7ich as secondary and how meny spotlight etc should I put on (not as meny as I need due to early date ? )
JSB

Hmmm...a few problems with your design, at least if we're going to follow a faithful, believable historical path.
Your ship shows casemated secondaries. However, Jackie Fisher ordered the secondaries to be suppressed in the initial designs drawn up of the "HMS Untakeable", which become the HMS Dreadnought. They did not return till the Orion-class.
Fisher preferred the 12-pounder (3in) QF gun, placed on turrets or in open mounts on the superstructure, since he envisaged these being sufficient to repel any torpedoboat (destroyer) attack. Later the calibre was increased to 4in. So, for your all-center-line Dreadnought to work as a plausible alternate "what if", then you'll have to follow the guiding line by Fisher and his team, led by Phillip Watt and Walter Mooney, and delete those casemates.
Also the tower-like Lion-inspired forward superstructure would not agree with the times and practices of 1905/06, again, look at the real deal and basically copy that, or adjust it accordingly, while keeping faithfully to the original.
The same goes with your awkward-looking aft superstructure and that stump mast. I'd replace it all with a real, RN-inspired superstructure and a tripod mast!
Your main turrets should really be placed more closely together. Mind you, this was a great leap into the unknown! Nobody knew what to expect, so, to keep the turrets close together (as was also the real practice in the RN), would've allowed for smaller shell rooms and magazines, and correspondingly would've saved on the length of the belt armor.
Also, I hope you're going to fill out the upperdeck level porthole-row as well.

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My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

A few years ago when I decided to draw an early RN dreadnought with superfiring guns, I appointed myself the First Lord of the Admiralty and fired Admiral Fisher. Otherwise my design wasn't going to happen.

Secondly, I decided any significant increase in size and cost wasn't going to get it done either.

Thirdly, I decided if I can have superfiring main turrets in 1909, I can also have casemated secondaries. One is no more unbelievable than the other. I reduced the number of secondaries to 12 but increased the caliber to 4.7"

Fourthly, the ship had to look good and still look British - hence the different bow similar to that of the IJN ships designed in Britian.

I used HMS Bellerophon as a starting point.

"HMS Vanquisher" which maybe of some help to JSB:

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Keep well and keep drawing,

Monty

Yes the problem is I cant decide whether this is a historical possibility (ie something Fisher would order in 1905 with the priorities of the day) or what you would build with 20/20 hindsight ( ie the best we could get with 12inch guns and same ish size and £ ), until I do that it will not be possible to stop things pulling in different directions (things such as do I fit 3 or 4.7 secondary guns / torpedoes / really good signals/fighting tops etc ?).

This is defiantly not finished so will be filled in later when I stop moving big blocks around.

JSB

Edit thanks BCRenown looks nice