Shipbucket

As my comp has gone and lost my G3 stuff for the moment .

What if ?
What if the RN kept the Lions instead of some useless 13.5 inch BB's (that are not ever going to be useful vs any new 16 inch BB's).
Then in the late 1930's rebuilds them as 2nd class Battlecruisers to kill (cruisers/pocket BB)


Rebuild with,
New Bow/stern, Torp Bulges, New thicker deck. balanced with removing Q and much a better powerplant (so faster and much longer range).
13.5 upgraded for more elevation and superfiring firing ports , and Dp 4inch guns With new directors / HIACS.
Also lots of float planes ( 5 ? ) to search for targets.


JSB

Seems like an implausible amount of work to end up with a dubiously valuable second-class combatant.

I agree with Erik. especially the modifications to the bow and stern seem somewhat worthless, and the torpedo bulges are way too big. as the propeller axis comes out of the bulges, you also moved this outward, remodelling all your machinery.

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.
Shipbucket Wiki admin

as training ship, second rate BC

- here bow and stern would never be rebuild/changed. because there is no need.
- Torpedo bulge, why should an second rate BC have that.
- new machinery. not worth it, since the entire ship or at least 50-60% of the ship is machinery, so to remowe the machinery you have to rebuild the entire ship. and that would be to expensive.
- shells for 13.5" would be hard to get in the 30's since all armament factory's are making shells for other guns instead. Just do like US did with one of there smaller dreadnought, they removed main guns and added 5" guns all over the place.

The Lions were at best extremely expensive second-rate capital ships when built. Why on earth any sane British government would even in its dimmest moment ponder to keep the two survivors best the heck out of me.
Unfortunately this whole effort us a failed one from the start, something my colleagues have already with different words pointed out. It simply would've defied any notion of sanity and economy!
Besides, your proposal is that they should be modernized and rebuilt into 2nd class BCs. If so, then you have to assume that any potential foe ( Italy, Germany, Japan) would've come up with date superior designs, such as really did happen!
Please explain to me how the Lion should've caught up with a Trento or An Aoba, for instance?
It would've entailed such massive rebuilding, that building a whole batch ( say 4-6) County-class CAs would've carried an instant attraction.
So, in short, your proposal is a failure, though you have shown strong artistic abilities.

_________________
My Avatar:Петр Алексеевич Безобразов (Petr Alekseevich Bezobrazov), Вице-адмирал , царская ВМФ России(1845-1906) - I sign my drawings as Ari Saarinen

Either way, it's a cool drawing - despite whatever these rude jerks have to say. Thanks for sharing it!

_________________
USN components, camouflage colors, & reference links (World War II only)

Ok,

After the first rejection by HMT, the design staff offer up this cheaper version (just tried to redraw a bit using more of the old ship, to reduce costs).

The reasoning for this ship is as follows,

1) a) All the 13.5 ships are likely to be useless v the 15/16inch ships allowed by the treaty (not to start mentioning the 35kt min ones built after the holiday).
b) but we are allowed to keep a small number of them by treaty(some till we build 2 35kt and some as training/gunnery ships).
c) so what will be useful v smaller ships ? fast bc or slow bb ? I would think keeping a few BC as training ships that then can become useful 2nd class ships if the treaty break down ? (I know the RN didn't really think like that, but lets pretend, the IJN did so not to pie in the sky and we might just sell it to the Gov as just training ships that cost the same as BB after we remove the extra engines and have better accommodation ?) .

2) We Keep the Lion class as the training/gunnery ships remove the Q and maybe X turret, the armour and most of the boilers to comply with the rules(and they will have lots of space for accommodation/classrooms etc).

3) in mid/late 30's we start to panic, and realize that they can be modernized and set to work and make them into cheap (ish) and useful v anything but a full BB at low ish cost (compared to new build) 2nd class BC's.
a) they can be modernised without taking a useful ship out of the line (this is what slowed down RN main program that they had to keep ships ready as they didn't know when 'it' would start) so can start in 1937 as soon as treaty's laps, or earlier if we pretend its just yearly maintenance or allowed modifications at first , ok not sure RN can do this politically.
b) we can modify the the guns pre 1937 as we have lots of spares in store to work on.
c) the cost will I think be much less than a new capital ship ?(does anybody have the numbers on the cost of the QE rebuilds v a town class v new BB ?)

So my design


my ships has
1) min 6 guns for salvos and as many forward to chase down running targets, 13.5 will work v all but a new BB and we should be able to up elevation.
2) DP secondary's (but without hitting the shortage of 4.5/5.25 guns ), 4 pompoms will give a good close AA (maybe to good ?).
3) lots of free weight /space as we have removed Q
4) new engines (can refit them through the big hole we have now we don't have a Q barbet) should more than balance the torpedo bulges ( I really think we need then as ww1 ships didn't do to well after being torpedoed), (Not sure but I wanted loads to speed to catch cruisers / fast raiders but it may not be enough without new bow/transom ? and I wanted lost of range as well ? but that may be to costly). So I would expect 30+Kn and its a big (compared to a CA) so might catch stuff in any sort of sea state and anyway it will be a long chase wasting lots of fuel for a raiding ship to use up a long way from home (and we can scout them with planes and keep following them) ?
5) not sure we need more/better deck/belt but might patch the mags a bit thinker.
6) Lots of Aircraft (5+) to search for targets in open ocean( 2 hangars forward and aft of the cat).

In summary yes they will not be very good ships but they might only cost as much as a cruiser or 2 to modernise and can be made available faster than a new BB and be very useful v anything other than a full on BB ( I would think they easily kill any pocket BB or CA ?).
Please do tell me if they are totally worthless and my logic sucks (I would be interested in your knowledgeable opinions) , Thanks JSB

You might want to consider HMS Tiger which, despite being the only one of her kind to serve the RN, had four additional sister ships built - all for Japan as the Kongo class (and indeed, were extensively rebuilt).

That makes quite a lot more sense. I'd look to some of the Japanese reconstructions to get a feel for how much speed you might be able to gain... I'm still not sure it's going to be a number that would excite you.

Ok Tiger would make a bigger newer and generally better ship.


IJN Kongo 27.54 knots to 30.27 knots (After adding lots of weight/size to make into a full fast battleship).
HMS Lion 28Kn to ? 31Kn ish (assuming the same ?),
but ( as I don't need to add as much weight for a 2nd class ship and losing a turret should help) could I get more 32/33/34Kn (may need more length ie bow/stern work) ? getting quite close to cruisers especially if they are slowed more by big waves etc.

Thanks JSB