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rifleman
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 3:31 pm
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pom pom is only a very ineffective 40mm
rate of Fire 60 rounds per minute
Horizontal range 7,500 yards
Max Ceiling 16,000 ft
Mv 2,275 ft/sec

Bofors
Rate of fire 120 rounds per minute
Horizontal Range 10,800 yards
Maximum Ceiling 23,600ft
Mv 2,700 ft

Bofors mountings were much more responsive
Oerlikons were used in larger numbers because the peiority for Bofors guns was land anti aircraft The Oerlikon was much more effective than the .5 Vickers gun mountings. They still serve a purpose and close in can be more responsive than the bigger Bofors and on some vessels the weight of the guns had also to be taken into account.
Both guns were available long before the war broke out and were in widespread service. The first British Bofors guns were bought of the production lines in Poland and Hungary as the Swedish factories were to busy (I think allot of their production was going to Germany)

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KHT
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 5:06 pm
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Swedish factories were mainly busy making weapons for - Sweden. Most German Bofors 40 mm guns were taken from Norweigian sources, IIRC. Remember, the Bofors 40 mm were comparatively rare among the Axis nations, simply because most of the gun that were used outside Sweden were made on licence, and the Axis nations didn't licence it.
First and foremostly, a nation producing weapons during wartime looks to its own needs, so most pieces of artillery made at that point by Bofors were made for the Swedish military.
The pom pom had a distinct advantage for the RN over the Bofors IRL: availibility. There were many of them. Not to mention it wasn't until later that they took the aircraft threat seriously, and until that point, the pom pom was considered at least acceptable.
And, the Bofors mount gun and mount were not made for mass production. There was a lot of polishing that had to be done on each individual gun during construction(the blueprints including instructions such as "file to fit assembly" and the like). Plus, there was a LOT of ammunition availible for the pom pom, considering they used the same shell as the WW1 era 2-pdr Mk.II, of which there were some two million left after WW1.

Before we continue the debate on the gun types I'd like to ask this though: from which point(just a year will do) does the RN posses this amazing crystal ball? Because that's going to dictate when they have the possibility to aquire which weapons.


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rifleman
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 5:15 pm
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the army and Airforce were both as guilty of not keeping up events and trends in warfare just as they are today.

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JSB
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 6:09 pm
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I used 1930 (not totally decided I considered, 30th January 1933 as AH get to be chancellor, or Monday 3rd September 1934 from 'The Foresight War' ;) ) but thinking I would use the date of,
The Treaty for the Limitation and Reduction of Naval Armament, colloquially known as the London Naval Treaty, was an agreement between the United Kingdom, the Empire of Japan, France, Italy and the United States, signed on 22 April 1930.
rifleman wrote:
the army and Airforce were both as guilty of not keeping up events and trends in warfare just as they are today.
Not sure I totally agree who really was stronger and more ready for war than the RN in 39 ? No sure any country is ever properly ready to fight the largest war in history, I think its very easy in hindsight as even armchair admirals like us know far more than anybody could know at the time.

JSB


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rifleman
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 6:45 pm
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Doesn't help that the political and civil service class keep resetting to the "we'll get 10 years warning of any conflict" they still do it its one of the pillars of Options for change defence review.

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 6:47 pm
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yes the same in Norway, it was first when an general in North Norway on own initiative ordered Norway Northern Army to counter and stop German forces North for Narvik, Germany relay got problems. The Northern Army of Norway hold the German in position, and raided there outpost many times, often destroying there 12.7 mm position around Narvik, and later on cannon position.


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rifleman
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 6:55 pm
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at least the Norwegians did better than the Danes!

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 7:20 pm
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rifleman wrote:
at least the Norwegians did better than the Danes!
The difference between Denmark and Norway is big. Norway used the distance between places to there advantage (even today it takes days to just drive from one end of Norway to the other, think about hove long it would take in WW2!), we had then advantage of having officers that was thinking for them self, do what was needed to bee done, without permission from the Norwegian Government. on the Navy side, the Norwegian Navy at that time was building new ships for something like that, and many of them gave Germany and problem. For example in Horten where our new build minelayer Olav Tryggvason. gave 4 German destroyer problem, and forced them out of Horten and behind a mountain. But Olav Tryggvason had received Norway own gun-control system, giving the ship ability to shoot over the mountain and hit is target precise. These Destroyers had to land men on land and take the city under hostage, before they could stop Olav Tryggvason.

In Narvik, our Coastal defense ship was just seconds from firing it's big guns, but it's secondary guns heavily damaged several German destroyers. But the Germans aren't stupid, they knew how dangerous these two coastal defense ship can be in a close quarter fight, so the German commander had his ship's torpedo's already loaded and ready, so all he had to do was flashing a light, when he was traveling back from the meeting with the Norwegians. Bergen gave German forces problems to, but Bergen wasn't given the order... like many other places in Norway, just like Denmark.

His Majesty the Kings guard, got nicked by the Germans as the black devils....

The only army in Norway ready to fight was in North, and they was ordered to fight by the Norwegian General up in North, and he did that without permission.

And army like the Norwegian Northern Army, are ready to fight and have one mission to defend... that army can hold the ground for a very long time against superior forces. specialy in that area that army was defending. It's an place North of Narvik that is just 22-25 km wide. that is an day trip. Now place an an army of 10.000 man there...


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JSB
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 9:10 pm
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That and Norway at least had the idea that it could be defended v Germany.

It has water between them so the Germans needed ships/air to invade, the Danes had no hope so why fight if you have the option of not doing so.

JSB


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: RN with crystal ballPosted: August 10th, 2014, 9:28 pm
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JSB wrote:
That and Norway at least had the idea that it could be defended v Germany.

It has water between them so the Germans needed ships/air to invade, the Danes had no hope so why fight if you have the option of not doing so.

JSB
yup, and the Germans had to almost deploy the entire Navy for this.


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