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Andre Muller
Post subject: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 21st, 2015, 9:46 pm
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Location: Moscow, Russia
Hello to all (and specially to russian FAI forum users)!

This project is releasing since 2013 on FAI, and now I'll decide to post it here.
It uses non-Shipbucket scale (12 px/m), because when it was started, I didn't know anything about Shipbucket. Later I rescaled some elements from Shipbucket partsheets.

The historic bifurcation is in 1887, victory of liberals on Sweden parlament election. Their reforms in 1890s allowed to save the union between Sweden and Norway and start mutually beneficial economical projects, like joint developement of Kiruna iron ores and Spitsbergen coal. Since 1895 they have common navy. Last stage of the WWI has some differents from real: first revolution in Russia happens in August 1917, after unsucsessful Russian assault on Eastern front and German counterattack in Baltia. To save the Eastern front, the Entente applies pressure to Sweden to join the war in May 1918. English navy is coming to the Baltic Sea, Swedish army with some Entante forces is landing in Baltic countries, in the rear of the weakened German army. The war is ending in September 1918, but second revolution in Russia excludes in Versal from the number of winners, because the new power refuses to pay te Tsarist debts, and later in Russia is starting the civil war. In 1922 Sweden, Norway and Finland are establishing the Scandinavian Federation. In 1930-31 there is a short war between Russia and Scandinavia. In 1930s, during the Great Depression and post-war crisis, liberal economical politics is changing to state-regulated with establishing of major state export-oriiented corporations and subsidions for local cooperatives. in 1939-44 - WWII. In 1947 Estonia joins the federation, in 1948 Scandinavia becomes the first European nuclear power. After the WWII the world is divided to three global military and economic blocks and some regional alliances and powers, athough since 1990s this world order decays.

The project includes at the moment: 1 coastal defence ship, 2 battleships, 3 carriers, 1 heavy and 4 light cruisers, 6 destroyers, 3 submarines, 1 minesweeper, 2 monitors, 2 gunboats and some unreleased ships. All ships are сalculated in the SpringSharp 3 and sufficiently realistic for economic opportunities of Sweden and Norway (later - SF).

P.S. My english can be bad (I learned it some years ago), but I believe that you will understand me.

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Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


Last edited by Andre Muller on November 22nd, 2015, 12:36 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Andre Muller
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 21st, 2015, 10:16 pm
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BATTLESHIPS

1. Dristigheten-class coastal defence ships
HKMS Dristigheten - Lindholmen AB (LH), 1896/98/1900 - scraped 1948
HKMS Tapperheten - Kockums Mekaniska Verkstad (KMV), 1897/99/01 - sunk by Russian navy in Tallin battle (1931)
HKMS Manligheten - Bergsund AB, 1898/1900/01 - sunk by Russian aviation in Tallin battle (1931)
HKMS Rikskronan - KMV, 1900/01/03 - used as target in 1947

[ img ]

Displacement: 5800/6920 t
Dimensions: 94/96 х 20 х 5,22/5,45 m.
Machinery: 8 Babcock&Wilcox coal fired boilers, 2 triple expansion steam engines, 6240 hp
Maximum speed: 16,3 kts
Range: 2000 nm at 10 kts
Bunker: 420 tons of coal

Armament:
-2x2 240mm/43 Bofors m.1895
-4x2 152mm/50 Bofors m.1897
-16x1 57mm/48 Bofors-Nornenfeld m.1892
-2x1 457mm torpedo tubes

Armour:
-Main belt - 240mm (in ends - 60mm), traverses - 210mm
-Armoured deck - 40mm (in ends - 25mm)
-Main turrels: 100-270mm (barbettes - 254mm)
-152mm turrels: 50-110 mm (barbettes - 50mm)
-57mm shields - 15mm
-Conning towers - main 240mm, aft 100mm

Crew: 410 men

_________________
Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


Last edited by Andre Muller on November 26th, 2015, 5:13 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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Andre Muller
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 21st, 2015, 10:50 pm
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2. Sverige-class dreadnouts
HKMS Sverige - LH, 1909/1911/1913.
HKMS Norge - Gotaverken (GV), 1912/15/18.
HKMS Gustaf V - LH, 1912/16/21. Since 1922 - SFFS Finland.

[ img ]

Displacement: 16800 t (Sverige), 16870 t (other), 19600 t (full)
Dimensions: 166 х 25 х 6,89/7,10 m.
Machinery: 12 Babcock&Wilcox boilers (6 multifuel, 6 oil), 6 Curtiss direct turbines - 39400 hp (Sverige), 4 De Laval geared units - 39800 hp (other).
Maximum speed: 23,5/12 kts
Range: 2700 nm at 12 kts
Bunker: 940 t (40% coal)

Armament:
-4x2 305mm/50 Bentlehem (Sverige), Bofors license-built (other)
-16x1 105mm/50 Bofors m.10 (licensed remake of 102/50 Mark 8)
-6x1 75mm/50 Bofors m.1898/14 AA guns
-4x1 57mm/48 Bofors-Nordenfeld m.1891/14 AA guns
-4x1 6.5mm Ksp.14 MGs

Armour:
-Main belt - 320mm (in ends - 60mm), traverses - 280mm
-Upper belt - 60mm
-Armoured deck - 25+65mm (in ends - 25mm) - Sverige; 25+70mm - other
-Torpedo bulkhead - 30 mm
-Main turrels: 150-300mm (barbettes - 320mm)
-Casemates: 60-100 mm
-AA guns shields - 15mm
-Conning tower - 254mm (Sverige), 300mm (other)

Crew: 915 men

In the next post must be the Ostfriesland-class dreadnout (1 was get by reparations, 1 another - purchased from Japan at double price of scrap), but it is already in Shipbucket.


Sverige-class battleship as rebuilt in mid-1930-s

[ img ]

SS1 Sverige - rebuilt 1934-35. In reserve since 1949. Sunk as nuclear target 1952.
SS2 Norge - rebuilt 1936-37. In reserve since 1950. Scraped 1953.
SS3 Finland - rebuilt 1937-38. Sunk 1943 in Riga bay. Raised and restored as a training ship in 1944-46. Scraped 1953.

Displacement: 19500/22380 t
Dimensions: 177/180,31 m x 25,1/27,5 x 6,89/7,1 m
Machinery: 6 Motala boilers, 4 De Laval TGU, 55800 hp
Maximum speed: 25,1 kt
Range: 4500 nm at 14 kt

Armament (1939):
-4x2 305/50 guns
-6x2 120/45 universal guns
-6x2 40/60, 4x2+10x1 20/70 autocannons
-Ericson m.39 radar

Armory (1939):
-Main belt - 320 mm
-Armored decks - 20+110 mm
-Bulge - 13 mm
-Torpedo bulkhead - 30 mm
-Main turrels - 150-300 mm (barbettes - 300 mm)
-Universal turrels - 50-90 mm (barbettes - 50 mm)
-Conning tower - 300 mm
-Rangefinder towers - 25 mm

_________________
Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


Last edited by Andre Muller on January 7th, 2016, 5:02 pm, edited 13 times in total.

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Andre Muller
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 21st, 2015, 11:59 pm
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3. Tor-class battleships
SFFS SS6 Tor - LH, 1933/35/38. Operatible museum ship since 1976.
SFFS SS7 Oden -GV, 1936/38/40. Scrapped 1981.

The last and most powerful battleships of the Federal navy. Under the terms and limits of the London Treaty Scandinavia could lay down a 35900-ton battleship with 16'' guns in 1933, an another after 1935, and later - 2 battleships with 15" guns for exchange of the Sverige-class. But financial capabilities and the WWII allowed to built only the first pair.

[ img ]

Displacement: 35800 t (standard), 40250 t (full)
Dimensions: 235/239.5 m x 28/32 m x 8,28/8,6 m
Machinery: 6 Motala boilers, 4 Rateau-Bretagne (Tor) / De Laval (Oden) geared turbine units, 134 500 h.p
Maximum speed: 30/16 kt
Range: 5500 nm at 16 kts
Bunker: 3500 tons of oil (at full displacement)

Armament (1939):
-2x3 406mm/45 Bofors m.35 (license-built US 16'' Mark 5) - 110 shells per gun
-8x2 120mm/46 Bofors m.33 dual-purpose guns (semi-autoloaders added in 1942)
-8x2 40mm/60 Bofors m.34 autocannons
-5x2 20mm/70 Oerlikon-Bofors m.29/35 autocannons

Electronics:
-1 x Ericson m.39 universal radar
-2 x Ericson Viggen artillery radar (added in 1942)
-2 x Bell T-10 radar directors (land-lease, added in 1944)

Armour:
-Main belt - 100+300 mm (spread armor) with 350 mm traverses, ends - 75mm with 60 mm traverses
-Upper belt - 30 mm
-Bulge - 12 mm
-Torpedo bulkhead - 35 mm
-Armoured decks - 130+40 mm (in ends - 50 mm)
-Main turrels: 200-450 mm (barbettes - 400 mm)
-DPG turrels: 50-90 mm (barbettes - 50 mm)
-AA guns - 12 mm shields
-Conning tower - 300 mm
-Rangefinder towers - 25 mm

Crew: 1680 men

Next part will be about carriers.

_________________
Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


Last edited by Andre Muller on January 3rd, 2016, 7:30 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 12:35 am
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Welcome to Shipbucket.

I like the look of the designs, they do have a certain 'Scandinavian' feel to them. It is a pity you can't use one of the Image hosts to display your drawings, it is a pain having to go click/click/click to get a look at your ships then go back again.

In your Tor class, you give stats for building the ships by treaty with 16", then the next treaty 15". Stick to 16" for all ships by treaty which would make your designers and builders lives much easier.

The range of your ships is very short for the large coastlines they have to cover. You do not want your ships in port refuelling every two to three days. Also have a look at the exemptions of goods/men that need to be allowed for between 'standard' and 'full load' displacements. (Oil fuel, feed water, fresh water, provision, men, etc) 1680 men at 80kg each = 134,400kg, that is a lot of beef.


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Andre Muller
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 12:44 am
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Quote:
it is a pain having to go click/click/click to get a look at your ships then go back again.
I agree, but I coudn't find the BBCode for picture size change. When my picture is full-sized, it is too long. 12 pixels/metre is huge... How I can do it?
Quote:
Stick to 16" for all ships by treaty which would make your designers and builders lives much easier.
It is a good idea, but what to do with the Washington limits? Japan, U.S. and GB were abled to build only two ships with 406mm, for the subsequent ships the maximum is 381mm. In 1921 Sweden has too small fleet and don't patricipate the Washington. In alt-London threary the construction of two 406mm battleships is symmetrical to the big naval powers.

in addition, the permission for SF to build 406mm battleships is a pitfall. Washington limits are very insidious. It's impossible to build balanced battleship with 406mm guns in displacement of 35900 tons. Barely with 381mm. With 406mm it's "speed, armour, armament - choose any two". SF choosed speed and armour. All this progect initially was a try to realize collegue Andrew's from FAI researches for ideal 1930-s battleship armoury int he minimum possible displacement and cost.

And there are just plans. I have studied a lot off historical statistics of Sweden and Norway. The integral economy of federation allows to build in 1930-s only two battleships. The project of battleship with 380mm guns from the beginning were doomed to stay on paper. The third and fourth are only declared in the threaty. Scandinavian goverment understands it too and decides to modernize Sverige-class ships.
Quote:
The range of your ships is very short for the large coastlines they have to cover.
I think 4500 miles for Scandinavia is normal range? 2500 miles for Sverige-class is enough for 1910-s, when the probable opponents (Russia and Germany) are in Baltic sea. Under the modernization it will be increased to 4500.
Quote:
You do not want your ships in port refuelling every two to three days. Also have a look at the exemptions of goods/men that need to be allowed for between 'standard' and 'full load' displacements. (Oil fuel, feed water, fresh water, provision, men, etc) 1680 men at 80kg each = 134,400kg, that is a lot of beef
I always suspected the SpringSharp lowers full displacement, but I don't now how many. It's Sharp calculations. How many tons are needed to throw to it?

_________________
Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


Last edited by Andre Muller on November 22nd, 2015, 1:26 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 1:01 am
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Joined: July 1st, 2014, 12:20 am
Location: New Zealand
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I use DropBox and have never had any problems with them. Agreed your scale of drawing will be BIG, but that is what the slide bars are for, or people can download the drawing and open it in a pic/viewer on their own computer which will size the drawing to their screen size. Whatever Host you are using now also resizes the drawings so that they do not appear full size without an extra 'click'.


For full load displacement, have a look at the real life 35,000 ton battleships. US Washinton class, South Dakota class. Italy, Littorio class, UK, King George V class. Most of them went from 35-36,000 tons to 44-45,000 tons full load. For range you need more like 8,000 as a minimum.


With the Washington Treaty you are right about the limits only giving two of three, I have noted that in my other AU threads, where I have built ships like your Tor class with 6x16" to give better protection and speed. In real life, most of the countries just ignored the limits and built what they wanted (within reason - Japanese are not reasonable).


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Andre Muller
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 11:42 am
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OK, enlarged the range of Tor-class to 5500 miles and full displacement.

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Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


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Krakatoa
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 11:44 am
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Those drawings look great like that, well done.


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Andre Muller
Post subject: Re: ALT Navy of Scandinavian FederationPosted: November 22nd, 2015, 11:51 am
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Some small elements of my partsheet are from Rurik's works (from his permission).
So big pictures are normal, or search a normal hosting anp post previews?

_________________
Active Project:
ALT Scandinavian Federal Navy 2.0


Last edited by Andre Muller on November 22nd, 2015, 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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