Moderator: Community Manager
[Post Reply] [*]  Page 7 of 9  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page « 15 6 7 8 9 »
Author Message
waritem
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 2nd, 2020, 10:42 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 325
Joined: August 4th, 2011, 6:37 am
Location: France
Rhade wrote: *
waritem wrote: *
To me, as it stands, the "victorious" allies would surely remain united (including with the Poles even maybe plus the Czechoslovakians) and would demand at least a return to the antebellum situation (which would be difficult without including the soviets in the negotiations). Not to mention possible sanctions for the aggressor ........
Well I must point out that allies treat Poles in rather... instrumental way. Before, in and especially after the war. Situation when Poles just like Czechoslovakia is thrown away in the name of more global and personal goal is perfectly possible scenario. In more or less, that happen IRL .
In my humble opinion, we cannot compare the situation at the end of the war, after 6 years of hard combat and the surprising defeat of france (considered, probably wrongly, as the most powerful army in the world at the outbreak of hostilities ) and the hypotetic situation you describe after "only" a year of combat.
In real history, the allies, exhausted, have let go to a "friendly" and victorious power the Poles and the Czechs.
Here those who would concider as the victors, who would probably be convinced (rightly) that time is in their favor , certainly would not so easily accept the dishonor of forsaking those for whom they have waged war.
but this remains a personal opinion .........
Keep up your good work.

_________________
"You can rape history, if you give her a child"
Alexandre Dumas

JE SUIS CHARLIE


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Rhade
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 3rd, 2020, 6:56 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2767
Joined: July 27th, 2010, 12:45 pm
Location: Poland
waritem wrote: *
In my humble opinion, we cannot compare the situation at the end of the war, after 6 years of hard combat and the surprising defeat of france (considered, probably wrongly, as the most powerful army in the world at the outbreak of hostilities ) and the hypotetic situation you describe after "only" a year of combat.
In real history, the allies, exhausted, have let go to a "friendly" and victorious power the Poles and the Czechs.
Czech had been cross out before war even start. Poland was used by GB as a delay, to give the Empire time for rearm and prepare at least to some point to incoming war. Western allies fought to defeat Germany, stop it expansion and protect own interests, not to liberate some central European nations from occupation. And GB will fight for own interest to the last... ally soldier. That was before the war, in times of war and after it.
waritem wrote: *
certainly would not so easily accept the dishonor of forsaking those for whom they have waged war.
Of course not... but GB wage war for GB and France wage war for France. They did not fought for Poland or Czechoslovakia or any other country then own, they fought against Germany.

In this, such hypothetical scenarios is perfectly possible. Geopolitics don't change that much.

_________________
[ img ]
Nobody expects the Imperial Inquisition!


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Sheepster
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 4th, 2020, 10:29 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 418
Joined: December 23rd, 2016, 12:28 pm
Location: Darwin, Australia
Belgium

The speed with which the German’s had breached the Belgian defences came as shock to the Belgians. They had seen their defensive emplacements offer little protection, with the crucial Fort Eben-Emael being rapidly overrun. The France Army had held the German advance at their primary defensive line, but the Belgians themselves had been able to achieve little on their home soil. But now the French policy of fixed defence was leading to the extension of the Maginot Line to the North Sea, effectively locking Belgium outside the French defensive umbrella.
The Belgian government treated this change in French direction with horror, seeing their country being sacrificed to be the battlefield of future European wars. Air power was seen to have been the decisive factor in the War, but Belgium herself did not have the resources to operate the type of heavy aircraft that would be needed to ensure Belgian neutrality. Belgium found itself drifting towards a defensive relationship with Britain, gaining shelter under the wings of the RAF.
Belgium hoped its strategic defence would be provided by Britain, and so concentrated on tactical defence. Its own air force had almost completely destroyed in the fighting, but pre-war armament contracts meant that replacement aircraft were already in transit to Belgium. Before the invasion Belgium had ordered 40 Brewster B-339B Buffalos. The first aircraft were on transport ships sailing for Belgium as the Germans launched their invasion, and arrived as the Armistice went into effect. The aircraft were immediately mobilised to rebuild Belgium’s shattered squadrons.

[ img ]

Belgium had also entered into a licence manufacturing agreement with Hawker for the domestic construction of 80 Hurricanes. SABCA was already committed to construction of Koolhoven F.K.58A fighters for France, and an order of Bréguet 694’s for Sweden and Belgium and so had not the capacity to start production before the war. The Belgian government now added resources to SABCA. The French also withdrew their requirement for the Bréguet’s – as they had performed so poorly against the Luftwaffe and as the backlog of French manufacture of engines was crippling even French aircraft manufacturers. As the Koolhoven’s engines were also not delivered and with no further French interest, those airframes were placed in outside storage and eventually scrapped. Now with capacity, construction began on the Hurricanes, the order now increased to 100.

[ img ]

Work also continued with the reduced Bréguet order, now for only 32 694’s and a further 12 for Sweden. The delivery problem with French engines led to the 694’s being modified on the production line to accept an American engine. As Bréguet themselves had modified the original 693 design to accept the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp Junior engine and become the 695, SABCA purchased similar Twin Wasp engines and modified the 694 to become the 694bis.

[ img ]

Additionally SABCA had entered into a marketing and manufacturing agreement with Caproni in Italy, for the manufacture and marketing of the Ca.312 and Ca.335, as the SABCA S.48 and S.47. Both aircraft types were contracted for production for Belgium, and with the additional resources allocated production could also be commenced before the Hurricane and Bréguet production runs were completed.
After pre-war displays of the prototype 24 S.47 Mistral fighter/bombers had been ordered. The initial prototype had been built by Caproni and delivered to Belgium before the War, and had found itself stuck in France after a landing accident during the German assault. That aircraft was abandoned and scrapped in France, but SABCA started construction on the Belgian order without it. Again delivery problems with the French Hispano-Suiza engines resulted in a redesign after only four aircraft had been manufactured. With Rolls Royce engines being supplied for the Hurricane construction, the S.47 was redesigned to take the Merlin II engine, and redesignated as the S.47bis.

[ img ]

In conjunction with the Norwegian order for the Caproni Ca.312bis, Belgium had also ordered 24 of their own bespoke version, the Ca.312M, taking the standard Ca.312 and adding the step nose section of the Ca.311M. Even with SABCA’s marketing arrangement for the aircraft Caproni was not able to commence delivery before July 1941, and so Belgian attention shifted elsewhere.
In addition to the licence construction of SABCA, the Belgian aero-manufacturer Renard was also designing aircraft. They had already built a prototype of the R.36 fighter, gaining a production order for 40 aircraft in late 1938. The unexplained crash of the prototype had cancelled that order in favour of the Hurricane. Undaunted, Renard modified the engine type to create the prototypes for the R.37 and R.38, and then further modified the design to include a pressurised, ejectable pilot capsule to create the high-altitude R.40 interceptor. Construction for a possible French order had commenced before the War, and the prototype was ready in September. Unfortunately French interest had waned, and with the commitment to other types Belgium also had no interest, and so the prototype became the sole example built. Renard continued work though, attempting to market a twin-engined version, the R.42, with 2 R.40 fuselages connected by a stub-wing, but although able to carry heavy armament this design remained a paper project.

[ img ]

SABENA, Belgium’s national airline had continued operations after the declaration of war until the German invasion, and with the end of hostilities recommenced flying. In particular SABENA conducted a weekly service from Brussels to the Belgian Congo using their new Savoia-Marchetti SM.83 airliners. While SABENA’s smaller Ju 52’s and SM.73’s were suited to European routes, the SM.73 had been used to initiate this long-range schedule before 4 SM.83’s were purchased. However the SM.83 had proved itself to have too small a payload to be economic, and by the time that the fourth aircraft was delivered after Germany had withdrawn, SABENA started the process of investigating a new long-range airliner.

[ img ]

Before the invasion, Belgium had been hesitant to invest in armoured vehicles for fear of this being seen as provocative. With the success of Dutch armoured cars in the first days of their invasion, Belgium reversed this policy and instituted a licence vehicle construction programme at Fabrique Nationale at Liege. The chosen vehicle was the Swedish Landsverk Pansarbil m/39, produced as the FN M/39, the design that the Swedes were constructing for themselves, and so not having the capacity to also produce for export.

[ img ]

Missed the attribution for the Buffalo


Last edited by Sheepster on November 6th, 2020, 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Hood
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 4th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Offline
Posts: 6587
Joined: July 31st, 2010, 10:07 am
Lots of great drawings!

_________________
Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Sheepster
Post subject: Posted: November 11th, 2020, 4:58 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 418
Joined: December 23rd, 2016, 12:28 pm
Location: Darwin, Australia
Netherlands

Although the Netherlands had been neutral until the German invasion in May, the first Dutch casualties had occurred immediately after the German invasion of Poland. On 13 September 1939 a German flying boat shot down a Dutch Fokker T.VIIIw/G seaplane. The German crew claimed that they had misidentified the T.VIII as British or French, having confused the Dutch red, white, blue and orange roundel with those of the Entente. In response the Netherlands adopted the orange and black triangle as their roundel both in Europe and overseas. In the aftermath of the German invasion, the Netherlands retained the orange triangle as their military symbol.

[ img ]

The Netherlands was the country most damaged by the War, with heavy fighting over her central and eastern provinces, and enormous damage having been further wrought by the inundations. The Dutch industrial heartland was still mostly intact and functional although supply problems negatively effected production capacity. The return of the Dutch royal family from Britain was positive in raising Dutch spirits, and the return of an imperial family to German gave the Dutch hopes for a more positive future relationship with their eastern neighbour. As a demonstration of that, the Dornier Do 215B-2’s ordered immediately before the war were delivered to the Netherlands.

[ img ]

Like most other manufacturing nations in Europe, pre-war military production had been ramped up but had not reached its required output. The Dutch now had a damaged nation and a military that had been lost most of its land and air vehicles. And even more so, the Dutch had the requirements for defence of the Netherlands East Indies. But the real stumbling block for aviation production was the supply of aero-engines. France was not even able to supply sufficient engines for its own needs before the war, and had resorted to American imports of both engines and completed aircraft. Britain was still expanding its domestic aircraft construction programme leading to an increasing delay in foreign engine deliveries. American engines were still available, but at prices that were steadily increasing with demand. Into this environment Germany agreed to supply engines and other resources to the Dutch.
The most significant destruction to Dutch military construction infrastructure was the complete destruction of the Koolhoven Aeroplanes facility at Rotterdam. In the initial German assault the airfield at Waalhaven, Rotterdam had been targeted and Koolhoven had been reduced to ashes; all aircraft , equipment, tooling and documentation destroyed. Koolhoven had been producing F.K.58 fighters for both French and Dutch contracts. In the aftermath of the invasion the French order was cancelled, but the Dutch order was redirected to Fokker.
The Fokker T.VIII seaplanes were already on the production line, which had been halted with the invasion. Initial Dutch deliveries had been for the T.VIIIw/G mixed construction model, with the all metal T.VIIIw/M model slated for the Netherlands East Indies. Production now shifted to all aircraft being assembled as /M models. Experience of the war now led to the aircraft being fitted with a machine gun in the bombardier’s nose glazing. Additionally production of the Finnish T.VIIIw/C continued, without the nose gun, and the aircraft were exported.

[ img ]

The prototype Fokker T.IX had flown only days after the German invasion of Poland, and had suffered a landing accident in early March. With the Germans gone the aircraft was repaired and production commenced. The T.IX was Fokker’s first break with mixed materials construction and was all-metal from the outset. Planned initially for the Netherlands East Indies, American-sourced aircraft had already begun to fill their requirements. Instead the T.IX was repurposed for Dutch home service. Taking cognisance of the effect that the Manchesters had had on invading armour, Fokker engineers started work on the original prototype, developing a heavy 4-cannon turret to convert the bomber into an anti-armour “pantserjager”.

[ img ]

Although not a casualty of the war, development of the promising Fokker D.XXIII was cancelled. With other urgent projects, the stumbling blocks of engine cooling and safe pilot ejection were considered just too time-consuming to solve and the single prototype was eventually scrapped.
Instead work progressed on the Fokker G.I. Production continued on the Dutch G.I “Wasp” version, with design work continuing with the updated all-metal version for the NEI. International sales customers for the G.I had not deserted the design, but Fokker was in no position to build for export. Instead the Danes, who had established a production line for their licence-built aircraft, were granted additional licences to produce the aircraft for international sales.
As design work progressed the engine requirement from the NEI changed from the Pratt & Whitney Wasp Junior to the Curtis Cyclone, for standardisation with their newly adopted Lockheed Hudson’s. This led to a model with a further modified tail section, the G.I “Cyclone”. The additional horsepower available now also allowed additional armament in the form of a removable belly cannon pack, designed for air-ground action. The G.I bis was considered overpowered and too expensive for European operations and although trialled, were not accepted for Dutch European service.

[ img ]

All work on the Fokker G.2 design ceased, although the project was not cancelled. The G.3 fighter for Europe, with much comonality with the metalised G.1 and the T.IX, moved into the design background while work continued on the features required to update its stablemates. But Fokker was not just concerned with military orders. Development of the Fokker F.XXXX Intercontinental airliner continued, albeit at a lower priority, but Fokker was looking at future production once the military production bubble was over.
The destruction of Koolhoven and their F.K.58 led to an increase in the order for the Fokker D.XXI. Fokker also continued its work on the advanced retractable-gear version, the D.XXIV, now to be equipped with German Daimler Benz DB 601 engines.
The De Schelde shipbuilding company were also involved in aircraft design and manufacture, having built the De Schelde S.20 utility and training aircraft, and were working on the construction of the S.21 fighter before the invasion. Designed from the outset to use Daimler Benz engines, the availability of additional DB 601’s worked very much in the design’s favour. A novel design with a nose mounted heavy canon the S.20, fit easily into the new concept of ground attack aircraft and the Dutch military appreciated the potential of a small, cheap heavy fighter. An initial Dutch contract was awarded for 20 aircraft, and international interest was also shown from Finland.

[ img ]

But the biggest Dutch pre-war construction project was the construction of Dornier Do 24 flying boats at Aviolanda. Originally designed by Dornier for the Netherlands construction had been started by the Dornier subsidiary in Switzerland and by Dornier themselves in Germany, before being taken over by Aviolanda. The aircraft was for use in the Netherlands East Indies, with 37 of a planned 72 been already been sent to the NEI before the German invasion – the 37th aircraft had been shipped only 2 days before the German invasion. The production line recommenced on the longer-range Do 24 K-2 model with American Curtis Wright R 1820 engines. The potential of the Do 24 to take on a rescue role had been noted by other nations, and Denmark requested a non-combat version of the aircraft. With no capacity for additional design work or manufacture Aviolanda turned back to Dornier re-engineer and market the Do 24 internationally. Dornier’s Swiss subsidiary took back the design, and having failed to secure addition supplies of American engines commenced production of the Do 24 T with BMW Bramo 323 engines.
In the aftermath of the invasion Dutch civil aviation had no immediate need for either modernisation or expansion. Before the war KLM had required a pressurised airliner to service the Netherlands East Indies, a need that Focke-Wulf was to fill with a pressurised model of the Fw 200 Condor. Focke-Wulf had put the KLM Condor model at a relatively low priority due to their own commitments to both Lufthansa and the Luftwaffe, which actually caused no disruption to KLM as they were in no financial position to take on new aircraft in 1940.
Military production also continued for land forces. The spectacular success of Dutch armoured car units in defeating the German airborne invasion led the Dutch military planners to accelerate production of the DAF M.39 Pantserwagon who’s production had only just commenced before the invasion. The remaining Landsverk M.36 and M.38 vehicles remained in service, although relegated to secondary roles as the M.39’s replaced them. Additionally DAF started work on modifying the M.39 for service in the Netherlands East Indies

[ img ]


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Sport_21_ing
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 11th, 2020, 6:00 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 15
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 1:04 am
Location: Santarém, Portugal
Contact: Website
How's the situation in East Asia/Pacific? Since the war in Europe was ended, how will the Japanese react?
(Well, since Japan doesn't occupy French Indochina, the US and other will not embargo the resources, right?)

_________________
This is NOT my art


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Sport_21_ing
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 11th, 2020, 10:43 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 15
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 1:04 am
Location: Santarém, Portugal
Contact: Website
+ theres missing aircraft:

Belgium:
- F4F Wildcat
Netherlands:
- Brewster Buccaneer; B-25C Mitchell

_________________
This is NOT my art


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Sheepster
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 12th, 2020, 4:55 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 418
Joined: December 23rd, 2016, 12:28 pm
Location: Darwin, Australia
Hi @Sport_21_ing
This is still my "setting the scene". I'm detailing all the northern European countries here until late 1940, down to the Balkans next, then Iberia and back to the Big 3. The Soviets are a closed black box for the moment, as they would have been to outside observers.
Write-ups of the Sino-Japanese War and Asia-Pacific tensions come after that ...

But for those missing aircraft you've mentioned:
Belgium appears to have no more than investigated the Wildcat, no order ever appears to have been placed from any source I can find. So a Belgian G-36A/F4F-3 doesn't exist here. As it was the first French ordered aircraft only started its test flying on the opening day of Fall Gelb.
For the other machines - my date here is up till the end of 1940, both the Brewster's pig and Dutch B-25's are aircraft of 1941 so anything may happen ...


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Sport_21_ing
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 12th, 2020, 11:17 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 15
Joined: November 8th, 2017, 1:04 am
Location: Santarém, Portugal
Contact: Website
Sheepster wrote: *
Hi @Sport_21_ing
This is still my "setting the scene". I'm detailing all the northern European countries here until late 1940, down to the Balkans next, then Iberia and back to the Big 3. The Soviets are a closed black box for the moment, as they would have been to outside observers.
Write-ups of the Sino-Japanese War and Asia-Pacific tensions come after that ...

But for those missing aircraft you've mentioned:
Belgium appears to have no more than investigated the Wildcat, no order ever appears to have been placed from any source I can find. So a Belgian G-36A/F4F-3 doesn't exist here. As it was the first French ordered aircraft only started its test flying on the opening day of Fall Gelb.
For the other machines - my date here is up till the end of 1940, both the Brewster's pig and Dutch B-25's are aircraft of 1941 so anything may happen ...
Ok, thx, it was just stuff I've in my head that I wanted to clear ;)

_________________
This is NOT my art


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
waritem
Post subject: Re: Manchester AUPosted: November 13th, 2020, 8:15 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 325
Joined: August 4th, 2011, 6:37 am
Location: France
To conclude our discussions, a small (last) suggestion:
I think that your scenario would gain in credibility if you added an attempt of counter-offensive of the Anglo-French. This attempt being (obviously) a costly failure, the two parties would find themselves in a state of exhaustion which would not allow them to continue hostilities.
("1 partout, balle au centre" as we say in french..... :D )
The eviction of Churchill because of his frenzied stubbornness would be notably much more credible.

Can't wait to see more of your exellent drawings. By the way, do you plan to do some SB scale designs for the AU?

_________________
"You can rape history, if you give her a child"
Alexandre Dumas

JE SUIS CHARLIE


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 7 of 9  [ 90 posts ]  Return to “FD Scale Drawings” | Go to page « 15 6 7 8 9 »

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: daemyrs and 21 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]