Shipbucket

I guess it can be ok. Of course if You're using F-104's for strike duties be prepared for horrible attrition rates (how is Greek for "flying coffin? or "what is the cheapest way of obtaining an F-104? buy a patch of land and wait until one crashes into it").

I'd avoid F-104s like the plague for anything other than interception duties. Replace them as soon as possible with a proper fighter rather than trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear...

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Real Hellas had remarkably good attrition rates, only 16 pilots in 29 years, of which three in beginning, resulting in more careful training. I have articles from magazines in my library about. I will edit tomorrow more here, so wait to read.

The F-104 was very good at flying fast and low, so it was good for penetration. On the other hand, its acceleration and climb rate give it fast responce capabilites. With such small wing area, is not a dog figther. For that role RHAF had the Mirage F1 (four squadrons used them in my scenario, armed properly) and from mid 1980's M2000. The number of F-104 reduced drastically after the introduction of M2000S in 1993-94, only two squadrons of RHAF and one of Navy still used the Starfighter in mid 1990's. These last RHAF squadrons were the first equipped with it.

I've never heard about F-104 being good at flying low though perhaps it was, but I've read that it was horrible in flying fast, low, with lots of armament and with lost of maneuvering. (notice the subtle difference )

Hi eswube,

To be fair, with the F-104's high wing loading it probably won't suffer from buffeting much, but, um, given the F-104's reputation for being an unforgiving aircraft I suspect (even more so than in real life) you'd see more pilots lost due to making a single mistake and having no options for recovery on account of the altitude. Oh, and completely agree about the manoeuvring - as I understand it, this, particularly, is not what the F-104 was designed to do, having quite poor energy retention in turns - it's a "boom and zoom" fighter, more so than most.

Regards,
Adam

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NSWE: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5695

I would be against using a type that needed politicians to be bribed for its widespread adaption in Europe.

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References and feedback is always welcome!

In real Hellas F-104 order was clean as far as I know. The most difficult about flying it was that in some circumstances the aircraft had a tendency to fall with tail. That characteristic killed many German pilots.

In HAF service, four accidents with a new aircraft in 19 month time was too much (first appearance of HAF Starfighter was at 25 March 1964 parade, an TF-104G which made several passages above spectators' heads) . From these first accidents, three were fatal, first was a TF-104. Cause for that was engine stall. With very small wings, the Starfighter could not glide without engine working, but fall like a rock, particularly in landing. HAF follow exactly the rules for using flaps/slats of the aircraft came in summer 1965. Before that, a modification of the mechanism of slats/flaps came, as a result from some accidents in Canada. In every briefing before any mission with F-104, the limitations and the correct way of using flaps was noticed. All operational HAF F-104G were modified with zero-zero Martin Baker seats.

Nore that press of the era also said about "flying coffins", but it was not first subject, due to the political circumstances of the era. Hellenic Air Force managed a remarkable good accidental rate, which was the example for all users of F-104.

Missions of the F-104G was to carry nuclear load under NATO missions (B-28 and B-57), with four fuel tanks and the weapon in centerline pylon.

Also multiple bomb pylons and rocket pods were used, for Close Air Support missions, but again pilot had to be very careful, because the Starfighter was an unforgiving plane.

I remember reading that Norway tested the air launched Penguin in a F-104, so perhaps it could be intergated and enter service. Another option was the German Kormoran, but this option adds one more missile and its support chain. Penguin had more than double range in half weight, sharing many parts with ship launched Penguin on Combattante III missile boat. Perhaps also the Penguin could be intergrated to other platforms, such as P-3 Orion and AS332F helicopters.

For balance, could Turkey take some Tornado IDS with Kormoran 2 in early 1990's (since in my scenario they have Tornado-replaced in theory the Canberra).

Does above makes sense?

The Penguin is used by ship, helicopter and aircraft. At the moment it's classified for F-16 since that is what Norway use, but if an Nation want it on there jet fighter, there shouldn't be a problem, these weapons are like the NSM, you just add the system to the inventory, on an Jet fighter it will probably include adjusting the jet fighter computers.