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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 2nd, 2015, 7:22 pm
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Supposing joining in Rafale program as partner in 1993-1994, when I could open production line? For a variant based on -B/C. Could the Iris-T integrated?

A possible timeline for Gripen-G/H (variant of -NG)?


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Blackbuck
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 2nd, 2015, 9:43 pm
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Firstly, it all depends how your government cooperates with Dassault. Look at all the issues India has had trying to get the go ahead for local production... Secondly yes and I would imagine pretty easily.

As for Gripen, probably around 2020.

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Trojan
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 3rd, 2015, 3:34 am
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I agree with Blackbuck, a Gripen-G/H would probably enter service in 2019–24 at the earliest considering that's when the RL E/F variant is supposed to enter Brazilian and Swedish service. I guess if you join development of the Gripen NG really early and invest just as much, if not more than, Sweden and SAAB, you could get it as early as 2016, but that might be a stretch.

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 3rd, 2015, 7:50 am
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Although there was also involvement in Starfighter program in 1964, which lead to F-104M variant (MK1 was the attack variant-a cross between CF-104 and F-104G and Mk2 was F-104S), government want to created a Air Force independent from US restrictions.

First step was the Mirage IIIE, then entered in F1 program in 1972 (in real world the Mirage III was evaluated in 1968 but did not ordered finally, and in 1972 was an offer from Dassault to co-produce F1 with 20% local production but instead the F-4E was ordered). Total 84 Mirage IIIE were assembled (64 IIIEH, 12 IIIRH, 8 IIIBH from 1966 to 1972), later 40 F1EH, 40 F1EH and 8 F1BH (1974-1980, then the larger program in history of RHAF, the Mirage 2000HL (180 total, of which 72 -EHL, 16 -BHL, 40 DHL (strike M2k) and 60 M2000-5 from 1984-2002). In this stage a second parallel production line opened in Hellenic Aircraft Company. Older variants were modernized to newer standards.

Having cooperation with Sweden for several other projects in the past (Adis I missile, creation of a national command and air surveillance system similar with STRIL-60, latter integrated also indigenous radars and electronics, named ΕΣΕΠΕ -Ελληνικό Σύστημα Έγκαιρης Προειδοποίησης και Ελέγχου, Hellenic Early Warning and Command System, HEWCS), RHAF tried to order Saab Draken in 1963-64, but this order did not proceed-the aircraft was simply out of export then). But Viggen was offered for export in late 1970's and RHAF order it (36 A-37, 24 F-37, 8 RF-37, 8 TF-37 or 36 AJ-37, 24 JA-37, 8 SF-37, 8 SK-37, I followed the Danish naming for Draken).

Concerning Rafale, having ordering Mirage III, F1, M2k (and being observer to Rafale from 1987, uprating to partner after withdrawn from Eurofighter), I think that I can open production line from 2003-04.

Does anyone has anything about the Projects 2105,2108 and 2110 which led to Gripen?


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sebu
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 3rd, 2015, 8:50 am
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I think, there is not going to be Gripen G/H, but studies of Saab suggests there might be "stealth Gripen"... http://www.shipbucket.com/forums/viewto ... 2&start=80


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Blackbuck
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 3rd, 2015, 8:57 am
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I think from what I've gathered he just wants the G/H to be a modified NG to suit Hellenic requirements.

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sebu
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 3rd, 2015, 9:34 am
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Oh, ok. Then there should be C/D + or E/F "Hellenic" version. I don't know what are requirements for Hellenic Air Force but current Gripen itself is quite narrow platform for upgrades... But one solution might be C/D+ with CFTs an AESA radar. And possibly ""plug and play" Growler-version for D; would it be "Drawler" then :)

[ img ]


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 3rd, 2015, 12:17 pm
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Blackbuck got the point: modified NG to suit Hellenic requirements. Weapons like Iris-T, AU AAM-24 (air version of the SAM-16 Naval missile), AIM-120, Meteor and some attack stand-off weapons (AFDS/DWS-39, indigenous light cruise missiles, laser guided bombs etc). Recce pods of indigenous design are already in service, while targeting pods were developed with Israeli assistance. So, differences are in some electronics (and among requirements were full access to codes). And of course AESA radar.

My idea is that the Gripen-C was evaluated and pilots which flied it said that they liked it, except the lack of power. This was the "drawback". In FD-scale, I will create exactly that posted in page 41.

These "Stealth Gripens" could be projects of the future for this AU. As for the projects before Gripen, reason for asking is curiosity, I have never seen these.

Ending, a possible timeline? First could be same with E/F, later built airframes will gradually modified.


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 8th, 2015, 8:31 am
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Some months back, I posted some fictional small vessels for Hellenic Coast Guard of 1930's and referred also to an Light Torpedo Boat developed from them. Here is that LTB, with the other vessels as well to see the evolution of the design from 1929 to 1937.

The Zeis LTB was 18.m long, 4.4m wide and draught was about 1.2m. Powered by twin McDuall MachineWorks V12-85 petrol engines (lisenced Hispano-Suiza 12 used also in RHAF Breguet XIXA2), each of 825hp, had top speed around 38-40kn, with range 400nm/34kn. Weaponry was 2 X 18" torpedoes, launched sideways like in British CMB 55 vessels (RHN had purchased some of these is 1929-1930), one Vickers 0.5" HMG and twin Hotchkiss 8mm LMG. Approximately 20 units built from 1937 to 1940.

A variant with RR Condor diesel engines built for Coast Guard also, speed was reduced to 28-30kn but range was more than double.

[ img ]

Note that in real hellas a machineshop/shipyard called McDowall did exist in late 19th century to first decade of 20th century in Piraeus. They managed to assembly the sole Nordefeld submarine real Hellas purchased in CKD kit in 1886.


Last edited by odysseus1980 on May 25th, 2015, 6:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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eswube
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: April 8th, 2015, 7:57 pm
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Nice drawings. :)


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