Moderator: Community Manager
[Post Reply] [*]  Page 1 of 45  [ 442 posts ]  Go to page 1 2 3 4 545 »
Author Message
odysseus1980
Post subject: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 7th, 2012, 4:59 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3437
Joined: November 8th, 2010, 8:53 am
Location: Athens,Hellenic Kingdom
If remember,I used the 1964 design of Tromp for Black Sea Command in AAW and ASW variants.With your help the AAW variant is now plausible and the ASW variant digged (too expensive).Tromp was expensive even in 1975 design.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1397

This is the Canadian DDG 1960 Project in its latest version.Looking it,I thought an alternative ship using some parts from the 1964 Tromp and from this.Would this be more economical solution?
Also CN DDG 1960 seem to have space to add hangar for 2 5tn helicopters (e.g AB-212)

My second question is if my LSD Naukratousa can have twin 127mm OTO Melara LW,one in each side.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 7th, 2012, 10:23 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 7329
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 12:25 pm
Location: the netherlands
both: I doubt it. but show us, draw an concept without too much details to show us how it works, with some adaptions it might work.... but especially in the case of the first one you'll basically have to redraw most of the ship to fit what you want.

_________________
Drawings are credited with J.Scholtens
I ask of you to prove me wrong. Not say I am wrong, but prove it, because then I will have learned something new.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 8th, 2012, 1:10 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2765
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 4:14 pm
odysseus1980 wrote:
If remember,I used the 1964 design of Tromp for Black Sea Command in AAW and ASW variants.With your help the AAW variant is now plausible and the ASW variant digged (too expensive).Tromp was expensive even in 1975 design.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1397

This is the Canadian DDG 1960 Project in its latest version.Looking it,I thought an alternative ship using some parts from the 1964 Tromp and from this.Would this be more economical solution?
Also CN DDG 1960 seem to have space to add hangar for 2 5tn helicopters (e.g AB-212)
My gut instinct is to say "no." Your best, most optimal solution would be to put whatever systems from Tromp into your proverbial shopping cart and design a vessel around that. I've been following what you've been doing and I think you can do it.
Quote:
My second question is if my LSD Naukratousa can have twin 127mm OTO Melara LW,one in each side.
Sure it can, if the ship is designed to accommodate them.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 9th, 2012, 4:51 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3437
Joined: November 8th, 2010, 8:53 am
Location: Athens,Hellenic Kingdom
Another choice is to use the 1960 DDG but stick to SPS-52/SPS-39 radar instead of SPS-01,since this radar was also in use at DDG/CLG of Aegean Command of RHN.There is a such version of 1960 DDG,though older design.Both ships below.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 10th, 2012, 5:38 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2765
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 4:14 pm
To clarify my post, I'm not doubting it could be done technically, but given that you've imposed a certain budget on this, I have questions if the design can meet it. Keep in mind one of the most expensive components of a vessel is its electronics fit.

It's obvious that you want a wide-area air defense destroyer so Mk 13 is going to stay (and that's hardly problematic anyway). I'm not very knowledgeable on radars and other tracking systems of the period so I'm hoping others can provide more detail on that. Three possibilities that come to mind immediately would be a Kortaener variant, a Knox variant or even an OHP variant.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 11th, 2012, 3:59 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3437
Joined: November 8th, 2010, 8:53 am
Location: Athens,Hellenic Kingdom
This concept goes back to mid 1960's,when only Brooke and Baleares/Knox where the other posibilities.Note that I will use either of these versions.Of course the version with US electronics offers commonality with DDG Kimon/Charles F.Adams and Lysandros classes.The SPS-01,although very good,had the drawback of being very expensive due to development cost,while SPS-52/SPS-39 were already widely used by mid to late 1960's in USN.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
klagldsf
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 11th, 2012, 7:44 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 2765
Joined: July 28th, 2010, 4:14 pm
It's ultimately up to you - it's clear you've actually put some thought into this so there's not going to be a lot to complain about.

One thing that's worth noting if you're going to go with a Knox variant is that Knox employed boilers and a single screw for cost purposes. At this point, it may be possible to replace the boilers with turbines, and you might be able to get two screws in the process (the Knox, and OHP, as it was pushed the limits of how fast you can go on a single screw so it's not worth trying to squeeze more horsepower otherwise). Gas turbines would also allow a complete redesign of the superstructure so you can really maximize your design and better avoid any CG penalties, and allow more creative freedom just from a drawing perspective.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 12th, 2012, 11:38 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3437
Joined: November 8th, 2010, 8:53 am
Location: Athens,Hellenic Kingdom
I know about Knox,I have read about it-even I have an article about her in a greek defence magazine.Baleares had the Mk-22 GMLS with only 16 missiles and only one SPG-51,offering less capabilities from Charles F.Adams.
However,the problem with DDG 1960 is the position of the CIWS (fitted later in modernization).So I will post the second DDG 1960/Messimvria in my thread.Also,I think I can replace the Mk-13 and the superstucture below the Mk-29 with a hangar.
The main problem when replacing steam engines with diesels or gas turbines is that the weight of the boiler seems to stabilise the vessel (I have some articles from English magazine "Classic Boat" on old vessels where their steam engine replaced with diesel and this affected their seakeeping capabilities),but perhaps the solution is more ballast to add the nessecary weight.

P.S I will try the Gas Turbine powered "Knox",since I like her lean,wave pearcing hull.And is quite stable,because Spanish added 8 Harpoon sideways and twin CIWS Meroka without affecting its seakeeping.Also a lighter sonar will help.


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 15th, 2012, 5:32 pm
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3437
Joined: November 8th, 2010, 8:53 am
Location: Athens,Hellenic Kingdom
In cold war era,Soviets had Pr.61 Kashin in Black Sea,so I need something to counter that (even though Soviets were never a threat for Hellenic Kingdom).So,I need a DDG AAW for Black Sea,what choice do I have?

-Tromp/Messimvria (ready)
-1960 DDG/Messimvria(plausible)
-Gas Turbine Knox
-DDG Impavido
-DDG Peder Skram
-FFG Brooke (but with Mk13)

Anything else to consider?


Last edited by odysseus1980 on February 24th, 2012, 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
[Profile] [Quote]
odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some questions about Ships and WeaponsPosted: February 23rd, 2012, 11:44 am
Offline
User avatar
Posts: 3437
Joined: November 8th, 2010, 8:53 am
Location: Athens,Hellenic Kingdom
The bigger "sister" of OPV HSY-82 is the FFG HSY-102.Again,this design has its roots in Italy (Fregatta Veloce 1800t) but designed in mid 1980's into a joint Hellenic-Cypriot programm and built in 1990's.All frigate variants built in Cyprus by FAMA Group Shipyard (total 6,2 for CNG Navy Command and 4 for a Latin America country).Also I made an OPV variant for HCG to replace Sigmas and the CPCX-this variant however built in Neorion Shipyard-4 units.

-J2100 gas turbine is based on SNECMA Atar 101 (the LM2500 is based on CF6/TF39) and is smaller than the LM2500.It has greater fuel consuption (since it is a turbofan design similar with the old GE CJ805) from its equivalent LM2500,but do not forget that 21800shp is the absolut maximum horsepower for the Atar Marine (as is also known).


Top
[Profile] [Quote]
Display: Sort by: Direction:
[Post Reply]  Page 1 of 45  [ 442 posts ]  Return to “Off Topic” | Go to page 1 2 3 4 545 »

Jump to: 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


The team | Delete all board cookies | All times are UTC


cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited
[ GZIP: Off ]