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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 19th, 2017, 12:46 am
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Colosseum wrote: *
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My issue with transferring to a NC license is that you're moving from one that is less restrictive to more restrictive, and that might run into legal troubles. As usual, IANAL.
What legal troubles would you be referring to, exactly?
It might not be legal to change the license without the permission of the artist, again, IANAL.

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 19th, 2017, 12:49 am
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OK - worst case, that means all old artwork is covered under the original license (the Fair Use Agreement), except for old artwork whose authors consent for their art to be covered under the new CC license we choose. New artwork would automatically be covered by the CC license.

This is a sacrifice I (personally) am willing to make.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 19th, 2017, 10:21 am
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Gollevainen wrote: *
The main reason why we Adm. want to get these things sorted is the fear of someone doing malice intent towards us and registering SB themselves and then prevent us to continue doing our works as a community we have been customed to do. Where as these fears are also quite far-fetched, but considering our history, they are not completely alien ones. The new website and its features are an investment of different caliber of what we have had before, so it would warant some level of more precautions to be made in order to secure our continuing future.
Would seem to be a bit paranoid. After all, unless you want to trademark the concept of 2 pixel = 1 foot raster drawings nobody can stop you drawing.

Also, I wonder how many foreign-language SB-clone forums exist? There was at least one Spanish forum if I remember correctly and there are probably many more, we seem to have exposure in China and its possible there are whole sub-communities of SB-style ship drawing in a variety of different templates and crediting styles around the world.

We obviously came first to form the Shipbucket moniker but even the pioneers like MConrads were building on work done previously, in particular those RN drawings done over a decade ago by Unknown. All those surviving artworks now exist in the SB archive, I notice they have SB scale bars and titles (but not the copyright mark at the bottom), I can't remember if they always had that template or where pasted onto them when archived? If the former, then we owe the origins of the template to somebody else.
(I also wonder what Photobucket might have to say about us naming our site in their style, given SB was just a group folder on Photobucket when we named it?).

It's making me feel old remembering the old days, probably only 5% of the current membership were even around then or can remember it (probably some of our youngest members were newborn back then!), its important for us older members to remember how things started and the debt we all owe to many members since departed from this forum.

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Judah14
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 19th, 2017, 3:39 pm
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Colosseum wrote: *
The issue to me, of course, is that these artists would use parts drawn by the rest of the members on this site. How do we sort that out?
There are cases where that doesn't apply as certain drawings have parts that are all drawn by the artist who made the drawing. A good example is FD Scale drawings of ground vehicles such as armor, trucks, cars, buses and trains whose parts cannot be found in part sheets as parts for those kinds of drawings usually vary from vehicle to vehicle.

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 20th, 2017, 2:20 pm
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Hood wrote:
Would seem to be a bit paranoid. After all, unless you want to trademark the concept of 2 pixel = 1 foot raster drawings nobody can stop you drawing.
I'm not terribly worried about this; my concern is primarily with protecting our own drawings done under the Shipbucket label/style/scale via the correct Creative Commons license. Ships we draw are content created by members of this community and thus each one should be protected under a license (even a CC one).
Hood wrote:
We obviously came first to form the Shipbucket moniker but even the pioneers like MConrads were building on work done previously, in particular those RN drawings done over a decade ago by Unknown. All those surviving artworks now exist in the SB archive, I notice they have SB scale bars and titles (but not the copyright mark at the bottom), I can't remember if they always had that template or where pasted onto them when archived? If the former, then we owe the origins of the template to somebody else.
MConrads created the template (I have the original .PSD files he made, with guide ruler demarcation etc). The later revised templates started including the watermark at the bottom right. Those were created by our forum staff back in 2012 I believe. The "template" belongs entirely to Shipbucket.

The "Unknown" drawings were put into the MConrads template back when the Shipbucket photobucket account existed. They are NOT in Shipbucket scale as far as I can remember, but rather slightly larger (indicating to me a metric scale vs. our imperial one).
Judah14 wrote:
There are cases where that doesn't apply as certain drawings have parts that are all drawn by the artist who made the drawing. A good example is FD Scale drawings of ground vehicles such as armor, trucks, cars, buses and trains whose parts cannot be found in part sheets as parts for those kinds of drawings usually vary from vehicle to vehicle.
This will only apply in a few cases. We need to select a license that will apply to every single drawing, so the provision that some drawings will include parts drawn by the community as a whole must be incorporated. Also, I am primarily interested in protecting our Shipbucket scale work. The FD Scale work will fall in line behind our Shipbucket drawings based on whatever license we select.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 21st, 2017, 8:52 am
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Thanks for clarifying that as I couldn't remember what happened back in those early days!

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 23rd, 2017, 3:24 pm
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I've contacted the CC license team with this email to see what they think:
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Hello -

I am an administrator of a website that specializes in non-commercial technical line drawings of ships and vehicles. We are exploring the use of a CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license for our work, but require some assistance re: the proper license to use. If there is a forum or a better contact for these questions please let me know.

Our drawings make use of "parts" drawn by the community as a whole, but each individual ship is generally credited to one or two authors who draw the majority of it. The author credits are written on each drawing and the "template" each ship is placed into is assumed to provide credit to the rest of the community who contributed the small parts and other details. The template includes a watermark back to our site (www.shipbucket.com), but the author credits will generally only say "(Author 1 & Author 2)".

All of our work is of a non-commercial nature.

All of our work is available for other artists to freely remix and share, with the condition that they add their own name to the credit line (so if Author 3 modifies work by Author 1 & Author 2, the credit line becomes "Author 1 & Author 2 & Author 3"). Our rules require that all Shipbucket drawings be kept inside the "template" with its watermark to preserve crediting to our community as a whole.

Given these caveats, we have chosen the CC-BY-NC-SA 4.0 license as the most applicable. We currently have our work governed under a "fair use agreement" that essentially outlines all the points above, and we are curious if we need to either remove our fair use agreement and replace it with the CC license, or keep it, and reference the CC license in our fair use wording. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 27th, 2017, 11:15 pm
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Here is the response I've received:
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Hi Ian,

I am not entirely certain I understand your question. Are you trying to determine which CC license would fit best with what you are trying to do? If so, BY-NC-SA does sound like a good fit, but please note that CC licenses do not enable creators to specify a particular way in which they must be attributed. In other words, while you could certainly state your preference that people use the template with watermark, someone who fulfilled all of the attribution requirements in the license but used a different format would still be in compliance with the license.

Please let me know if that helps answer your question, or how else we can help.
best,
Sarah
Seems like our goose is cooked because of the requirement that all derivative work be placed in the Shipbucket template.

That said, I think this point is worth discussing. How sure are we that work absolutely must stay within the template? The original intent of this rule was to prevent people from taking our work, stripping away the scale bar, watermark, and credits, and re-posting as their own. However, were each drawing covered under the Creative Commons license (and not a nebulous fair use agreement of our own writing that makes no mention of prohibiting commercial use), we would likely have a lot better legal framework under us. We could still "state our preference" (as the Creative Commons representative mentions) that derivative works use the template and watermark.

Personally? I'd rather a derivative work provides credit to the authors and to Shipbucket.com than not. If this means they need to strip away the template, but the authors and the site is at least credited somewhere according to CC license requirements, then maybe this is a compromise we should be willing to explore.

Thoughts? This thread has been remarkably silent and I would think more of you would be interested in how your work would be legally protected. ;)

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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 28th, 2017, 4:03 am
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Well sofar the standard shipbucket template have not prevented unlicenced use of our work. There are alot of cases in the internet where shipbucket drawings are being presented without the template, credits, or the watermarks.

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pegasus206
Post subject: Re: Shipbucket legal statusPosted: March 28th, 2017, 1:34 pm
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I dont think we can stop people to remove the watermark and credits as its easy to do. Maby a bigger watermark like i made on this Template would, help but i dont think it will, but its a lot more work for them to clean.

And maby we must ad the line COPYRIGHT SHIPBUCKET and a publishing date to our work so we scare off Commercial users off our work. It will at least help us to prove we were the first who put it on the inernet.


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