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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 20th, 2014, 3:54 am
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I know that RAF designations go sequentially.

A little description for my variants:

VC10 C.1: As real Type 1106
VC10 C.2: Strengthened floor, side door, 80.000 lb capacity
VC10 AEW: Entered service in 1978
VC10 "R": Entered service in 1970
VC10 K1/2: Entered service in 1967 and 1972
VC10 CC: Entererd service in 1973. The question is if Britain had an aircraft with this mission, I have never heard about it.

Note that this RAF had also the Shorts SC.5/45, the "Jet Belfast" for bulky loads, also replaced by C.17, so now has 16-22 of these. If remember correctly, real RAF has 8 C.17.

Air India had the B707-420, Quantas B707-320. As both belong in Commonwealth, could they had ordered VC10;


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 20th, 2014, 12:46 pm
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What Blackbuck means is that all the designations go sequentially regardless of their function designation. Sometimes this is planned in advance (hence gaps) or as new variants entered service.
There are no repeated numbers so K.1 and C.1 would not happen, they would be K.1 and C.2 or K.2 and C.1 but never the same number! This was to avoid confusion between types.

E.g. the Nimrod was MR.1, MR.2, AEW.3, MRA.4.

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Hobbes
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 29th, 2014, 3:25 pm
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Hood wrote:

The RB.140-141 Medway by-pass turbofan in 1957 was designed for 10,400lb static thrust. Development costs were estimated at £5 million. By 1958 Rolls-Royce were looking at 12,000lb thrust and then 14,000lb thrust in future developments which would allow them to rival the Olympus. The reheated RB.142/3 (14,000lb dry thrust) was proposed for the P.17A by English Electric
In November 1959 work stopped due to lack of orders and Rolls has spent £4.7 million and had nine test engines with 1,550 hours of testing complete. They proposed a series of derivatives to keep the programme alive. The RB.177-2 Medway was proposed for OR.357 and was the engine on the Avro 776. The RB.177-2 was rated at 22,000lbs and had a larger by-pass duct, reduced stage LP compressor, extra stage HP compressor, shorter combustion chambers and a modified LP turbine.
I've been looking for information on the Medway and your post is the most informative I've seen on the subject.
I've found the dimensions of the RB.141 in Flight magazine (1959 - 2806), do you know if the RB.177 would have been the same size (esp. diameter?)


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 30th, 2014, 4:03 am
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Indeed, Hood gave useful information. I will look also at that link on Flight Global.


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 30th, 2014, 5:24 am
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Flight Global has several references for Rolls Royce Medway if you search the archive of the magazine.


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 30th, 2014, 8:57 am
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Many thanks Hobbes. Most of the information comes from Derek Wood's 'Project Cancelled'.
I don't have any dimensional data, but I would think the RB.177-2 would have been slightly wider given the larger by-pass duct, the shorter combustion ducts might have reduced length slightly. The dry weight was 3,490lb (1583 kg) and the airflow was 431 lb/sec. This is slightly less weight than the RB.141-3, but of course the RB.177 was over a decade later and newer materials would have helped reduce the weight.

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 30th, 2014, 12:05 pm
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We have the engine, so we need the first design of Trident with the triple Medways. Also to examinate where else this engine (both Medway 141&177) could be used.


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Hobbes
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 31st, 2014, 3:07 pm
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There was a proposal for a VC-10 with RB.177 Medways (for the maritime patrol role, OR.357). A bit puzzling, because thrust would have been very similar to the Conways. Maybe better fuel consumption?

The reason I'm looking for more data on RB.177 by the way: I'm building a scale model of an aircraft with these engines, and need to know what engines I can use to represent them.


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: August 31st, 2014, 4:02 pm
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Interesting. When finish it, please post photos of the model (not here, in "Off Topic").


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: October 26th, 2014, 4:48 pm
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After several pm exchanged with shippy2013 and Bombhead the conclusion is that RN would be built around three Audacious Class carriers. So, Fleet Air Arm (AU) needs preferably Brirtish aircraft to equip them. This is the Audacious 1964 from the archive : http://www.shipbucket.com/images.php?di ... 201964.png

Fixed wing aircraft shown on it are Saro P.177N Sea Arrow, Guardian and perhaps Sea Hunter.

So, she would have-as discussed in page 8- SR.177N (RB.106 Thames, 4 underwing pylons plus two fuselage pylons for short range missiles or Microshell rockets), Gannet ASW/AEW/EW/COD (AEW had an "Hawkeye-like" radar on its back) and Bucaneer S.2. Sea Vixen also remain in service further and received some electronics from Fairey Delta III (AU), while the Buccaneer remain in service until well into the 1990's, modified for Paveway bombs, Sea Eagle missiles, ALARM etc.

Another proposal is to examine the potencial of Hawker P.1125 (and also P.1121 for RAF). However, a refit of Sea Vixen as above would be more cost effective and could serve until early 1980's. Another option is the P.1154N ( and P.1154A for RAF).

Finally, we have another good proposal from Blackbuck with the F-8/A-7 which also need evaluation (capabilities vs overall cost is the main factor).

P.S On Archive's Audacious there are also helicopters- but the discussion for British helicopters will follow in the future- again with many intersting designs to evaluate.


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