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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 3rd, 2014, 10:04 am
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VC.10 AU variants:

I found a profile of Soviet Mainstay and the radar dome was almost above the wings, perhaps this is the best place for an aircraft with T-tail.

[ img ]


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 3rd, 2014, 1:04 pm
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Looks a better place to put it to me.

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 3rd, 2014, 5:25 pm
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Here is the link about the Beriev A-50 Mainstay:

http://red-stars.org/spip.php?article67

Dome is just after the wing root, but the wings position is the opposite from the VC10. Both airframes shared however a large, hign T-tail.


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 20th, 2014, 7:07 am
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British built helicopters

Bristol Sycamore
Westland WS-51 Dragonfly
Westland Widgeon
Westland Whirlwind /Wessex
Westland Scout/Wasp
Westland Lynx
Saunders-Roe Skeeter
Westland Westminster
Bristol Belvedere
Fairey Rotodyne
Westland WG.22
Westland Sea King

We all know which of these were succesful and built in large numbers for Britain and for export customers (Whirlwind/Wessex,Lynx, Scout/Wasp,Sea King), while others built in small numbers or had some export success (Sycamore, Dragonfly, Widgeon, Belvedere, Skeeter). Two concepts remain for evaluation, the Westmister and the Rotodyne. The question is if Britain could avoid purchasing Chinook. For export, first possible customers are Commonwealth countries, then others (all those who did purchased British helicopters in real world).

The WG.22 was very ambitious for that era, but perhaps this fuselage could be useful as a base for an fixed-wing plane.


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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 20th, 2014, 3:56 pm
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A quick (about 2 hours) AU British multi role fixed wing aircraft (ASW/AS/COD/Tanker/AEW) started from P.139 Guardian. It is equivalent to US S-3 Viking. However, RN resctrictions was to be capable of operating from small carriers (Audacious and Hermes). This mean that landing speed must be as low as possible (solution was boundary control, like Buccaneer), maximum length 54ft, folding wings and strongly built to attaint violent speed decrease. Capapults of these carriers could handle Buccaneer, so weight can be up to 24-25tn. Engines were derived from RB.162 core but with a fan in front of (something like a scale down Tay). I estimate length about 53ft and 71.5ft wingspan (folding to half in Gannet way) and 24-25tn loaded. Four variants built and entered service gradually. First was the COD, with a ramp like door at the back, followed by tanker (which featured the same system with Buccaneer) and ASW/AS, using the electronics from modernised Gannet. Last variant was the AEW, again using the radar or the Gannet AEW (variant AEW.7). Later, modernised ASW/AS platform was capable of taking two Sea Eagle missiles, while it has retractable MAD and sonoboys bay similar with US S-3 Viking. Torpedoes are carried as S-3 again.

[ img ]

Another possible platform could use a scale down fuselage from WG.22 with different windscreen and S-3 Viking wings (a interesting mod which I would try). An interesting thing is that there was off the shelf Rolls Royce engine equivalent with TF34, the RB.163 Spey Junior as used from Fokker F.28-tweaked of course for sea use.


Last edited by odysseus1980 on November 20th, 2014, 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 20th, 2014, 3:58 pm
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a small note, these engines (or equivalent) could be optimised for use at sea as the fokker F28 actually was proposed for the COD role, IIRC.

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 20th, 2014, 4:08 pm
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For landing on the carrier, delivering and go? Perhaps on the large CVA-01, but not for an Audacious. The WG.22 itshelf is equivalent with F.28-1000 in internal volume (did the comparison). What about the aircraft I post above?

RN could modernise Gannet again and again, as french did with the Alize, this could be the "cheap" solution. The new aircraft could also be turboprop, with twin double Mamba.


Last edited by odysseus1980 on November 20th, 2014, 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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acelanceloet
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 20th, 2014, 4:10 pm
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it was proposed for the USN, as replacement for the C-2 greyhound ;) anyways, only refering to it as the engines were suitable for naval use or conversion, as that was proposed ;)

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odysseus1980
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 20th, 2014, 4:20 pm
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Could an platform like that above could be developed? more internal volume from P.139 (longer) and with larger wing with boundary control low landing speed.

Link for Rotodyne (scroll down look in two paragraphs just above photos/plans): Would the Rotodyne offers more "value for money" from Chinook? Latter is a very good large trasport helicopter though.

What about an WG.22 with modified wing (minus tilt among mods)? Could this be a plausible transport aircraft? Of course, it takes off/lands covnectionally now.

Another helicopter (Bristol type 194): https://sites.google.com/site/stingrays ... l-type-194


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Hood
Post subject: Re: Some Thoughts about What If British AircraftsPosted: November 22nd, 2014, 9:33 am
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I like the idea of a developed P.39 with boundary layer control. There is no doubt that it could be used for other roles. I like the tanker idea too. Would have been pretty easy to add a HDU in the rear fuselage or pods under the outer wings. Doesn't have to come from the Bucc, Flight Refuelling Ltd had a whole range of this kit for all sizes of aircraft.

The Chinook had been selected as the future ASW helicopter for the CVA-01 and its escort cruisers. However, I've never ever seen any evidence of a Boeing-Vertol ASW variant so I'm not sure how much this was Admiralty pipe-dreaming. Even so, the Admiralty had been wedded to helicopter ASW since the days of the failed Bristol 193. I'm not a fixed wing ASW adds anything that a couple of Sea Kings couldn't do. Also saves hangar space.

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