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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 2nd, 2018, 2:17 am
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It has been a long time but the MOD announced the whitepaper with planning upto 2032.
This whitepaper includes the replacement of multiple ship classes and the expansion of the tanker fleet. Down here are the so far announced procurement programmes that have been given priority:

- Karel Doorman class Multi-purpose frigates entering service in 2024 in cooperation with the Belgian Navy component 2 for each navy (4 total)
- Alkmaar (Tripartite) class minehunters replacement entering service in 2024 in cooperation with the Belgian Navy component 6 for each navy (12 total)
- Walrus class submarine replacement entering service in 2027 mutiple options are still open including a Damen-Saab submarine & Type 212CD by Germany/Norway.
- A new Combat support Ship (CSS) entering service in 2022 to replace the Amsterdam that was sold in 2014 due to budget cuts.

For the near future other plans were announced:
- Replacement of the Zeven Provincien frigates as of 2029
- Replacement of HNLMS Rotterdam as of 2030
- Replacement of HNLMS Johan de Witt as of 2032

Also most if not all smaller support ships will be replaced by 2032 so there will be a lot of work for the Dutch drawers on Shipbucket.

Future Multi-Mission Frigate / Karel Doorman replacements
These ships will be replaced in cooperation with the Belgian navy between 2024 - 2026 where a total of 4 ships will be build. The information so far has been released in parts and the design is not yet completed. The 2 artist impressions are the latest to be made public with the release of the whitepapers. The 4 ships are very likely to be build by Damen Shipyards, and will be multi-mission ships. They will form the base for the replacement of the Zeven Provincien class later on.

Like the Type 26's they will feature a mutli-mission bay to fit multiple container modules, in the aft a slipway will be added like the Holland class OPV's for a 11 m RHIB (FRISC) and likely a VDS.
On the weapons part not to much has been made public other then the shown images (previous versions showed a RAM on the hangar) and a 16 cells VLS (strike length) on the bow. No final decisions have been made on the weapons yet.

Information:
* Length: 140 - 145 m
* Displacement: >3000 t
* Crew: 110 + 70 nonlisted

Armament on the latest artist impression:
- 76 mm sovraponte
- 16 cells mk41 VLS for ESSM (posible VL-ASROC, TLAM or SM-3 have been rumored/intrest confirmed)
- 30 mm Marlin WS
- RAM Mod 2 or High Energy Laser on top of the bridge
- 8x ASuW missile, most likely NSM or LRASM as replacement for harpoon
- Rheinmetall MASS decoy launchers
- 2x 12,7 mm Hitrole RHMG
- 76 mm sovraponte on the hangar

- 1 NH-90 + 1 UAV in the hangar

Sensors will be delivered by Thales Netherlands, likely a variant of the SEAMASTER 400 radar as on the OPV/JSS + Apar block 2. For CIWS guidance a Pharos will be placed behind the RAM mod2 /HEL


[ img ]
[ img ]

Future Mine Countermeasure Motherships / Alkmaar replacements
Also these ships will be build in cooperation with the Belgian navy that has the lead in this project. The tender will be a EU public tender with the contract to be awarded in 2019, there have been a few possible suppliers that have stated theire intrest in the programme incl.:
- Damen Shipyards (NLD) : unknown design / ? t
- Saab Kockems (SWE) : MCMV 80 / 1250 t
- STX France /Socarenam / EDR shipyards (FRA / BEL) : DeviceSeas-concept / 3700 t
- BMT (UK) : Venari 85 / ? t

Due to the EU tender of this project a real impression cannot be given at this moment but some details have been announced:
The ships will be arround 80 m in length they should sail with a relative small crew and deploy a ''MCM-Toolbox'' with multiple systems that can be placed onboard depending the mission.
The toolbox will include: 2 USV's / UAV's / mine hunt and mine sweep systems. Belgium will receive the first ship in 2023.

Artist impression of what might be the Damen proposal
[ img ]


Future Submarine / Walrus class replacement
The Walrus class will be replaced starting from 2027 by a new class of 4 submarines. Multiple options were studied including a unmanned version but this was labeled as to expensive, the options for a coastal submarine and oceangoing submarine are still on the table with the oceangoing favorite with the navy. This project currently is a EU tender but could be a dutch project due to securtity and secret operations of the submarine fleet. For now there are 4 candidate suppliers : TKMS (GER) Type 212CD / Damen-Saab (NLD-SWE) A26 variant / Naval Group (FRA) SMX 3.0 / Navantia (SPA) S-80.
The French and Spanish are likely the first to be excluded for the tender.

Artist impression of what might be the Damen-Saab proposal
[ img ]

Combat Support Ship
With the decommisioning of Zuiderkruis in 2012 the RNLN only had 1 tanker Amsterdam left till 2015 when the new Joint Support Ship (JSS) Karel Doorman entered service. Due to budget cuts the Amsterdam was also decommisioned before the JSS entered service. Leaving the RNLN with only 1 tanker in service, in 2017 it was announced that a 2nd tanker was to be build.
With the publication of the whitepapers in 2018 some information was made public;

* Length: arround 180 m
* Displacement: 20,000 t
* Crew: 75 - 80 + 80 - 85 nonlisted
* Multiple helicopters can be carried
* Armament will be reduced to minimal

The ship is to be enter service in 2022 with the contract to be awarded in 2019, most likely to Damen shipyards and the ship will share a large part of its design with the JSS only this ship to be a naval tanker instead of joint ship.


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With the ''prinsjesdag'' on the 3rd Tuesday in September and the publication of the budget for the following year also including the DMO projects planning i expect alot more information arround that date to be made public. At least for the 4 projects listed above, the other projects will be part of it but are planned for later years.

I hope we can use this topic to discuss the plans of the RNLN and Belgian Naval Component and post information/artist impressions when they are made public so anyone can claim the ship for drawing on the bucket. I will keep a list of claims below this part of the post, just post it in this topic and i will try to keep the list up to date. For myself i am not interested in drawing them due to not being uptodate with new drawing styles and lack of time.




Claims
- Future Multi-Mission Frigate / Karel Doorman replacements = Available for claim
- Future Mine Countermeasure Motherships / Alkmaar replacements = Available for claim
- Future Submarine / Walrus class replacements = Available for claim
- Combat Support Ship = Available for claim

Available for claim
Claimed by [NAME/DATE]

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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 2nd, 2018, 11:50 am
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Well, at least they've finally made up their mind.

As for the M-frigate replacements, a more likely look is this:

[ img ]

[ img ]

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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 2nd, 2018, 12:06 pm
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MihoshiK wrote: *
Well, at least they've finally made up their mind.

As for the M-frigate replacements, a more likely look is this:
Note: i left out the images to keep the posts cleaner

Those are sketches by Damen, the ones of the frigates i posted are official impressions from the MOD. The final design will be released when the contract will be awarded in cooperation with Damen.
I prefer the Damen sketches by far but as we have seen at the Holland and JSS projects, the MOD will design a ship and the shipyard just has to work it out in detail and then build it.

As you can see the frigate in the Damen artist impression carriers the pennant F802 = Zeven Provincien. That ship is designed as replacement for the ZP classes there are more impressions on the web also one with a same design carring the pennant F827 ex-Karel Doorman lead of the class M-frigates.

Fun detail : the first impressions released by the MOD in 2010 carried the pennant F951 (Belgian pennant) and carried the letters PF on its flight deck indicating the name will be Pieter Florisz.

[ img ]

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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 2nd, 2018, 11:18 pm
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Additional to the 4 above listed projects the following plans were announced in the whitepaper:

- Midlife Upgrade (MLU) Zeven Provincien class frigates (2018 - 2023)
- MLU for Holland class OPV's (2025 - 2028)
- MLU for Karel Doorman JSS (2028 - 2029)
- MLU for Snellius class (2020 - 2022)
- MLU for Johan de Witt LPD (2021 - 2022)

- Replacement of Rotterdam LPD ( 2030 - 2031) rumors are it will be replaced in cooperation with Germany
- Replacement of Johan de Witt LPD (2032 - 2033)
- Replacement of LCVP mkV(c) (2024 - 2026)
- Replacement of LCU mkII (2031 - 2033)
- Replacement of Mercuur & Snellius class (2026 - 2033)
- Replacement of FRISC interceptors (2024 - 2025)
- Replacement of Van Kinsbergen training vessel (2025)
- Replacement of Pelikaan caribbean support ship (2030)
- Replacement of Harbour dive support vessels (2027 - 2029)

- Replacement of the 127 mm gun for Zeven Provincien class frigates (2020 - 2023)
- Replacement of ESSM by ESSM block II (2022 - 2027)
- Replacement of SM-2 BlockIIIA by SM-2 block IIIC (2029 - 2033)
- Replacement of Harpoon (2023 - 2027)
- Replacement of Goalkeeper CIWS ( 2023 - 2027)
- Replacement of mk46 lightweight torpedo (2020 - 2025)
- Replacement of mk48 heavyweight torpedo (2031 - 2033)
- Replacement of Low Frequency Acoustic Sonar (2030)
- Replacement of Self-Propelled Variable Depth Sonar (2022)
- Procurement of Torpedo defence system (2022 - 2026)

A total of 6,3 billion euro's (7,5 billion USD) is planned to be invested in the navy untill 2033.

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 3rd, 2018, 6:11 am
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Quit short career for the Zeven Provincien class... But then, if it hold the naval shipbuilding alive, why not, can in some cases be cheaper than do what Norway do... Have now shipyard with the ability to deliver larger warships anymore, apparently it would be to "expensive" to star up again that type of production... but then the Norwegian government are funny, we are still operating our frigates without helicopters! Production delays


I side tracked a bit there, oh well


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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 3rd, 2018, 10:12 am
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heuhen wrote: *
Quit short career for the Zeven Provincien class... But then, if it hold the naval shipbuilding alive, why not, can in some cases be cheaper than do what Norway do... Have now shipyard with the ability to deliver larger warships anymore, apparently it would be to "expensive" to star up again that type of production... but then the Norwegian government are funny, we are still operating our frigates without helicopters! Production delays


I side tracked a bit there, oh well
Not that short of a career the first was comissioned in 2002 (Zeven Provincien) and it will be 27 years in service when the replacement will arive. The navy uses a 25 years lifespan for its ships, only the last years it was extended to 30 years or more due to budget cuts and/or not enough replacement budget. And if you want to use the base of a frigate build before you cant wait to long after closing the production line.

There is some hope for the navy that if more budget is reserved they can build more ships then the 1 on 1 replacement that was announced in the whitepaper.

Huehen do you have any info about the new norwegian subs? Type 212CD?
It is rumored in Dutch naval forums that there are talks with the germans about joining the programme but i cant find any reliable info about the boats.

I have found info that they will be limited to +/- 1500 ton due to operations in the Fjords but i also found info that they would be arround 50% larger then the current Type 212's.

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 3rd, 2018, 11:36 am
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Well we in Norway would probably operate our frigate like the last once, 40+ years!

Norwegian military have said they was going to be more open.... But the Navy didn't get that memo! Heck

All I have heard is that they are larger, the Norwegian submarine is supposed to use the 212 design as base. All service on the Norwegian submarine and those German submarines will be done in Norway, at Haakonsvern Naval Base but also at laksevaag yard in Bergen, there is from before a service-yard in those old German submarines bunkers but I'll have lock around and see if there have come something new out.


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MC Spoilt B'stard
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 3rd, 2018, 11:48 am
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heuhen wrote: *
Well we in Norway would probably operate our frigate like the last once, 40+ years!

Norwegian military have said they was going to be more open.... But the Navy didn't get that memo! Heck

All I have heard is that they are larger, the Norwegian submarine is supposed to use the 212 design as base. All service on the Norwegian submarine and those German submarines will be done in Norway, at Haakonsvern Naval Base but also at laksevaag yard in Bergen, there is from before a service-yard in those old German submarines bunkers but I'll have lock around and see if there have come something new out.
40 years?! well they cant do that much operations anymore at that age, totaly outdated with 40 years of service even with upgrades.

Ok thanks for the update on the subs, nothing new for me but still thanks. My interest goes out to the lenght, displacement, range and endurance. Basicly if it is a coastal submarine or a oceangoing submarine to begin with. The Dutch MOD is studieing the options between a coastal or ocean sub, the navy wants a ocean sub but politics decided to study all options even unmanned and no replacement (both have been eliminated from the options since).

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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 3rd, 2018, 12:26 pm
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Frigates: we have a government that rather send there men out in old equipment, than make sure they have what they need.

We had helicopters in the North, for the army, but the government wanted to move them all south, so they can be used over the capitol In case of terror... Those the army in the North would not have any helicopters for transport/evacuation/medic... Yeah it was an fight to the last second inside the government between the politicians, with the military went out with scenarios about what can happens, basically the military was pushing the government...

Well I hope the frigates get replaced after maximum 30 years... But knowing the Norwegian government, they will start to talk about it at frigates 25 year, come to a decision at 30 year, project it for 5 years+, basically what they did with the Oslo class. They Navy startet that replacement project in 1988-1990 and already then the Navy had two different cancelled frigate projects since 1970

Welcome to Norway, rich as fuck... But retarded government... (I bet Coloseum of Gollevainen going to move this)


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heuhen
Post subject: Re: Future Royal Netherlands Navy & Belgian Naval ComponentPosted: April 3rd, 2018, 7:32 pm
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Huehen do you have any info about the new norwegian subs? Type 212CD?
It is rumored in Dutch naval forums that there are talks with the germans about joining the programme but i cant find any reliable info about the boats.

I have found info that they will be limited to +/- 1500 ton due to operations in the Fjords but i also found info that they would be arround 50% larger then the current Type 212's.
After my understanding they will be an improvement on Ula class, and Ula class was build to be able to operate in the open ocean, as well as in the fjords. and it's quit often they operate North of Lofoten, and all the way up to Svalbard. so I belive the 212CD would be an ocean going with enough flexibility to operate in the fjords. If Norway was only focusing on the fjords, we had gone Swedish. (when we are invited to exercise in US, Ula class, travel by it's own power over the pond. last time a Swedish submarine went over, it was transported on a ship, probably for comfort, for the crew)



after searching around on the Norwegian version of the Type 212CD submarines, the list is following:

- they are still working on finding partners and how deliver equipment for the submarines, and signing contracts.
- signing contract with the shipyard itself, first in 2019
- Service on Type 212CD both German and Norwegian, will be in Norway. if that include other German submarines in the 212-series, I don't know.
- the submarines are supposed to be in service, 2026-2030
- There are some technology, that are under development or will be improved for this class
- These submarines will be equipped with submarine version of Naval strike missiles. (development contract with Germany are already signed)

other than that, it is still to early. they haven't yet signed contract with the shipyard.


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