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TimothyC
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 22nd, 2018, 3:39 pm
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As I've noted in the discord, and am placing here so it doesn't get forgotten, I'm up for judging the fantastic work we see here.

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Colosseum
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 23rd, 2018, 3:55 pm
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Yes yes, our current judges are TimothyC and Shigure. I need 2-3 more, but as stated earlier do not volunteer if you can't turn around the judging card within 3 days.

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Hood
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 23rd, 2018, 4:22 pm
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Here is my entry. This design is based on several real-world design concepts and ideas and is an attempt to bridge the Daring to County gap.


In 1952 with the demise of the Cruiser-Destroyer concept armed with three 5in/L70 guns the demand for a modern destroyer to replace some of the older types of prewar destroyers still in service remained. The Korean War rearmament programme was in full swing and the Admiralty decided to look into a modern destroyer. The design used several elements of the Cruiser-Destroyer concept, namely the 5in/L70 gun successfully co-developed with the USN, fixed torpedo tubes and the steam-gas turbine YARD Y.102 powerplant. By 1954 as the design was nearing design approval the guided-missile destroyer became the main focus and the number of hulls was curtailed at just four ships but the desire to have a modern design capable of anti-aircraft escort with good surface firepower to deal with Soviet cruisers and destroyers saw attempts to cancel the class rejected.

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HMS Cutlass as completed, 1958

Four ships were laid down, HMS Cutlass and Claymore completed in the late 1950s to the planned design with three gun mounts. Given the problems with the Sea Slug programme which had delayed the following County Class destroyers the class offered a powerful and modern destroyer, offering the heaviest destroyer gun armament then afloat.

[ img ]
HMS Carronade at completion, 1960

The Admiralty decided to alter the second pair with the new 'Orange Nell' SAM. The missile was designed to intercept supersonic missiles. It had a max range of 5.7 miles and a minimum range of 1.1 miles. It could reach Mach 1.2 speed and had a 'warmed-up' reaction time of 10 seconds from detection to launch. The missile had four booster rockets. It was guided by an S-band volume scanning TIR and a Q-band illuminator. It could be looked on before launch or acquire after launch. The missile had a 100lb HE-frag or continuous rod warhead. The twin-rail launcher was fed by a magazine consisting of two concentric rings totalling 40 missiles. HMS Carronade and Culverin were converted on the stocks and completed after a 9 months delay owing to problems with the Orange Nell programme. Both ships commissioned in 1960.

[ img ]
HMS Claymore, 1966

HMS Cutlass and Claymore on return from the Far East following the Confrontation with Indonesia were refitted in the mid-1960s with Sea Cat and Type 965 radar to enhance their anti-aircraft capabilities. They maintained their escort role with the carrier fleet as close-in escorts. Increasingly however they seemed outdated with their heavy gun armament and heavy torpedo armament and plans were drawn up for their conversion into ASW escorts but funding problems continually delayed this work until 1968/69 when both were taken in hand to receive a hangar and helipad replacing X mount and Sea Cat 2 supersonic SAMs but their fire-control and sonar equipment was left largely unchanged.

[ img ]
HMS Claymore, 1979

HMS Cutlass was often seen abroad despite her lack of flag facilities but was decommissioned in 1979 during defence cutbacks. Placed up for sale, a transfer to Chile falling through in 1981 and she was broken up in 1983. HMS Claymore was mooted for retirement in 1981 but was brought back into commission for the Falklands War where her guns were put to good use for shore bombardment. On her return to Britain she was decommissioned and after a spell as a training ship was sold to the breakers in 1987.

[ img ]
HMS Carronade, 1977

During the 1960s and 1970s HMS Carronade and Culverin were kept updated with newer weapons, receiving modern anti-submarine torpedoes and supersonic Sea Cat 2 SAMs to bolster their aging Orange Nell system which was obsolescent by 1970. It proved impossible to consider fitting the new Sea Dart and so only minor refit work was carried out. At one point it was suggested to replace the system with another two Sea Cat 2 launchers as a poor mans guided-missile destroyer but this was never done. When the Type 80 frigates with Orange Nell were rearmed in 1976 the spares released kept the two destroyers going a little longer but missile stocks dwindled and in 1978 both were paid off. Both were broken up during the 1980s.

HMS Cutlass D98 June 1958
HMS Claymore D99 September 1958
HMS Carronade D100 March 1960
HMS Culverin D101 June 1960


Dimensions
Length: 486ft 6in (oa), 470ft (wl)
Beam: 50ft
Draught: 16ft

Displacement
5,250 tons (full load)

Powerplant
60,000shp YARD.102 COSAG
30kts on both
Endurance 3,500nm at 20kts

Armament (Cutlass and Claymore)
3x2 5in L70 (fire-control by 2x MRS-3)
2x1 40mm Bofors L/70 (fire-control by 2x CRBF) [replaced in 1964-66 by 2x4 Sea Cat SAM launchers (36 missiles) with GWS-21 fire-control, replaced by 1972 with Sea Cat 2 with GWS-22 fire-control)
[From 1972 2x1 20mm Oerlikon]
8x 21in torpedo tubes for Fancy anti-ship and Pentane anti-sub torpedoes (24x torps) [replaced by 2x3 12.75in torpedo tubes for 24x Mk.44 anti-sub torpedoes]
1x Mortar Mk.10 Limbo (30x depth-bombs)
2x Corvus flare-chaff launchers
[From 1972 1x Westland Wasp HAS.1 helicopter in a hangar aft]

Armament (Carronade and Culverin)
2x2 5in L70 (fire-control by 1x MRS-3)
1x2 Orange Nell SAM launcher (40x missiles) (fire-control by one Q-band illuminator)
[from 1969 2x4 Sea Cat 2 SAM launchers (24x missiles) with GWS-22 fire-control)
8x 21in torpedo tubes for Fancy anti-ship and Pentane anti-sub torpedoes (24x torps) [removed in 1969]
1x Mortar Mk.10 Limbo (30x depth-bombs)
2x Corvus flare-chaff launchers

Radars & Sonars
One Type 960 air search (by 1965 Type 965 by 1970 Type 965M), one Type 293Q TIR (by 1970 Type 992Q), one Type 277Q surface search/height-finder (by 1965 Type 978), one Type 978 navigation (by 1974 Type 1006) navigation, Type 170 and Type 174 sonars, Type 667/668 'Cooky' jammers.

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Hood's Worklist
English Electric Canberra FD
Interwar RN Capital Ships
Super-Darings
Never-Were British Aircraft


Last edited by Hood on August 26th, 2018, 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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erik_t
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 23rd, 2018, 5:03 pm
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Colosseum wrote: *
Yes yes, our current judges are TimothyC and Shigure. I need 2-3 more, but as stated earlier do not volunteer if you can't turn around the judging card within 3 days.
Yo dog... ;)


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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 25th, 2018, 11:17 am
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My entry for this contest comes from my Red Finland timeline:

The Punainen Pohjanmaa class destroyers, known as Project Hävittäjä-55, came along he 2nd part of Building the postwar 1949 Naval Program, which called for a total of 28,000 tons of new construction for the needs of the Cold war Baltic and Northern European geostrategical situation. The People's Navy had structured its new "light coastal defence" doctrine around large flotillas of Motor Torpedo boats, led by destroyers, intended for gunnery support and command ships. The first destroyers build were Small and akin to Soviet SKR concept, and with their 100mm/56 armament were no match of the new Swedish destroyers and theorethical support from USN or RN destroyers. As the 1949 called for a 6 new destroyers, the seccond patch of them was decided to utilize the new Tampella made 122mm/50 naval gun, that after lengthy development time was fully utilised in enclosed semi-automatic dual purpose mounting, that was capable of around 15-18 rounds per minute. The Hävittäjä 55 was designed pretty much around the new guns, to field two of them in stable seaboat and the increased size compared to the predecessors allowed much more lively ships better suited for the command ship role. Soviet Yakor firecontroll radar and Planshet-F combat data system completed the main armament that was supplemented with 1 5-tube launcher of 533mm torpedoes and three twin zif-31 57mm AA mounts. Also 2 RBU-2500 ASW RL were carried and naturally set of 24 mines could be carried. Fut-N served as main air-search radar an Pegas-2 completed the sonar set. The porpulsion was placed in unit arragment and had 2 Wärtsilä made turbines and 2 Valmet boilers of 17 000 Kw each.

[ img ]

Ships of the Project Hävittäjä-55 were 2,100 tons standard displacement, 112.16m long (OA), 11.5m beam and with draft of 3.5m
Three ships were build:
Punainen Pohjanmaa, launched 1957 by Valmet Hietalahti, Helsinki
Punainen Ahvenanmaa, Launched 1957 by Valmet Aurajoki, Turku
Punainen Kymenlaakso, launched 1958 by Valmet Rauma

All were completed in 1958-1959 and they recieved nominal modernisation in 1976-1978 in Leningrad, when their main radar set was changed to a Rubka-suite, Argun sonar, and the landing of the TT set to make room for a additional deck houses. A bow-chaser twin 30mm AK-230 set was fitted and the FCR for the 57mm battery uprgaded to Bars. They were also first ships outside Soviet union to recieve the Start ECM set.


[ img ]

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gral
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 25th, 2018, 2:02 pm
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I suppose 'Punainen' means 'Red'?


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Gollevainen
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 25th, 2018, 2:13 pm
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yes

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Coming next: L/M Moskva, some research ships, pr.26bis, Pr.1144 remakes and Project 1143 complete redux.



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Submit your drawings to the archive here
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Hood
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 26th, 2018, 9:34 am
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I have slightly edited my design with a taller bridge and slightly smaller turrets plus a couple of minor touches here and there.

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Interwar RN Capital Ships
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MihoshiK
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 26th, 2018, 4:13 pm
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Hood wrote: *
I have slightly edited my design with a taller bridge and slightly smaller turrets plus a couple of minor touches here and there.
Eh, I liked those fuckhueg turrets.

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[ img ]


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Charguizard
Post subject: Re: Early Cold War Destroyer challengePosted: August 27th, 2018, 5:38 am
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MINIMUM HUNTER: TAKING THE ROCKET TORPEDO TO SEA
POPLAR CLASS, 1952


By 1950 the original Oceanic Escorts of the Pacifica Navy were nearing 20 years of age; obsolescence had come en-block a while ago already. The lessening of the pirate threat and the winding down of conflict in North America meant that their numbers were more important than their individual capabilities, and the remaining CYPRESS and PINE class ships soldiered on, herding merchants across Big Blue. But anti-submarine and anti-aircraft warfare had taken great leaps, beyond what these hulls could offer, and thus a new ship design was devised from scratch. The submarine remained the main threat against convoyed merchants, older Aircraft Carriers would provide the necessary air cover for these anyways, so ASW was the main focus, yet again, for the next generation of Pacifican Oceanic Escorts.
Current state of the art in anti-submarine warfare was the projected 53FU6 low-frequency SONAR, a large and heavy set with an enormous 20 ft transducer that was expected to detect targets at over 10,000 yards, and the RMT-1 “Alabaster” Torpedo delivery vehicle for the 14” Mark 18 torpedo, currently undergoing trials. These systems determined the minimum size and power requirements for the ship, and a 300 ft Destroyer hull was chosen to deploy this very specialized platform. Central to the ship was the Alabaster installation, consisting of a six tube box launcher on a fully-remote-controlled rotating platform, with six reloads on a vertical magazine next to the launcher. The gigantic SONAR dome was installed close to the bow of the ship, which dictated a rather fuller hull shape forewards than desired, but the ship nevertheless retained fine hull lines. The hull would then be dominated by the powerplant, consisting of two Yarrow 3-drum boilers with superheaters and economizers, running at 580 psi (4,000 kPa), superheated to 842 °F (450 °C) and two Parsons-type geared turbines driving two shafts, producing 16,000 hp for 28 knots. This speed, plenty enough for convoy duty but lower than the 30 knot threshold, classified these ships as Oceanic Escorts instead of Fleet Escorts, like the contemporary NOOTKA class.

[ img ]

As the ship took form, other systems found their way to round out the ship’s capabilities. The 53FU6 set was backed up by a 44FU3.75 targetting SONAR, and supported by a 38TUP “electric eel” towed hydrophone, while the ASW armament was rounded up by four fixed torpedo tubes for 14” Mark 18 acoustic homing torpedoes. For the main surface and anti-air armament, a new 4”/50 Mark 23 fully automatic gun was chosen, which was projected to be a better match for small surface combatants than current and future 5” guns. This gun consisted of the familiar 4 inch 50 caliber barrel, mounted forward of the trunnion to enable simple mechanical loading at any angle of elevation, which was performed by a hoist coming up from the ammo handling room, which fed a hopper which in turn fed a curving, extendable cage that ended on the gun breech tray, whose spring was cocked pneumatically for the first shot and subsequently recocked by recoil action. This gun would be directed by the Mark 41 director, placed just abaft the bridge, on a short tower in front of the foremast. The anti-aircraft armament was then rounded up by a twin 37mm M1937 water-cooled autocannon directed by a Mark 32 simple tachymetric enclosed director with integrated rangefinding radar, and two of the ancient but trusty Browning .50” M1921 machine guns on pintle mounts. Other equipment include 52RS140 early warning radar mounted on the mainmast, 50RS5 surface search and navigation radar mounted on the foremast, 49RSP radar direction finder mounted on the foremast wings, 51FJ10 S-band jammer mounted on the foremast top, 41RB100 aircraft homing beacon mounted just behind it, 39RJ6 trainable jammer mounted on a dome on the mainmast, 39FMP monitoring antenna mounted on the sides of the foremast, oropesa gliders and paravanes for minesweeping, and two M1947 Window grenade launchers.

[ img ]

The first ship, PNS Poplar, was laid down on April 1951, at the Naval Yard Esquimalt, and five others soon followed suit in both state and private yards, for what would end up as a class of 12. Alas, what seemed simple in paper wasn’t in practice, neither the 4” Mark 23 gun nor RMT-1 were ready in time for POPLAR’s completion in 1953, so this ship and the following 3 sisters, ALDER, BIRCH and CYPRESS, were completed with a manually loaded 4”/50 Mark 18 twin “thimble” BD mount on the bow, and the familiar 24” quintuple torpedo tube mount, which was adapted to RPC and equipped to fire wire-guided 24” “Oryx” torpedoes or sabotted 14” Mark 18 torpedoes. The other ships were delayed long enough that they received their intended equipment as delivered. Eventually, with the success of both the Mark 23 gun and Alabaster, ships were scheduled to be refitted with their intended equipment, but none had undergone this by the start of the Eurasian conflict in 1955. Later in their lives, surviving ships of the class exchanged their M1937 37mm mount for the GIM-4 “Consul” surface to air infrared guided missile, a small, short range defense system designed to have little ship impact and replace air defence guns on escorts and merchants, swapped the M1921 .50” machine guns for 1.2” M1940 autocannon in partial compensation, but also received the much more accurate RMT-2 “Axiom” torpedo delivery vehicle, replacing Alabaster and firing from the same launcher.

[ img ]

Once out at sea, it was found that these ships presented uncomfortable movements in heavy weather, undoubtely caused by the fuller hull forms forewards. Another disadvantage was how little volume remained for the crew on a ship that was cramped from the outset, berthing and mess standards were not on par with other ships entering service at this time, which was never satisfactorily addressed. This also had the disadvantage of giving the hulls little grow margin for the future.
Nevertheless, the POPLAR class ships proved to be as capable at hunting submarines as their equipment foresaw, they gave sterling service accompanying convoys across the Pacific ocean, to South America, Oceania, East Asia and even into the Indian Ocean, with several confirmed kills and many more engagements against VMF underwater raiders, but also a few against aircraft and even surface ships.

Here's my entry to the challenge, a rather small ship, but one that could still be called a "Destroyer Escort" by other navies.
I would've loved to make a top view using the experience given to me by the Hatsuyukis but there wasn't enough time or energy, so maybe next time.
I hope you like them and of course your opinions and criticism are very welcome.

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w o r k l i s t :
Hatsuyuki-class Escort Ships . . . <3


Last edited by Charguizard on August 28th, 2018, 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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